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Friday, September 3, 2004 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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      As I read Rand, she takes "original sin" to mean an innate tendency toward evil on everyone's part. She consider the idea monstrous because it is unjust to condemn a freely choosing being as evil prior having made any choices that could be assessed evil or good, wrong or right. (Evil and good, in the moral sense, can only apply to chosen conduct.)
      Accordingly, Rand is neither an optimist nor pessimist. As she understands human beings, we are free to forge our character and get on the road to do good or evil or some mixture on a continuum (and thus lead mediocre lives).
      How might this way of reading her square with Rand's occasional optimism about human history and progress? Because the good human beings do lives after them, affording newcomers to build on it, there is a definite possibility, even probability of progress. However, it is not guaranteed, since when most people do live lives consisting of little thought and thus not much good coming from them, there will be noticeable and even devastating lulls.  



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Friday, September 3, 2004 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Neil, in regards to reason and why it is subordinate during history,  the first thing that comes to mind is the religious stranglehold on morality, and the fear and guilt and self-sacrifice instilled in young personalities that often remains and works against any attempts at reason. Also, the sexual repression that follows, religious morality, tends to render people apathetic and obedient, and in many cases destructive of their own interests. Wilhelm Reich, the noted psychiatrist, has written about this extensivily especially from the angle of sexual repression and its consequences of draining vital energy from the body, i.e. The Mass Psychology of Fascism. The same also applies to communism and fascism, and their various offshots.


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Post 2

Saturday, September 4, 2004 - 2:51amSanction this postReply
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she also denied that human beings have instincts, and therefore any tendency to self-destructive or irrational behavior
This isn't quite how I recall it Neil.  I'm thought she said that because man had no instincts, s/he had to use the rational faculty to make choices, and could make irrational and self-destructive choices and that "this is what he has done throughout most of his history"

She also said that the looters, moochers and secondhanders had always "won" over the primary mover because, largely without realising they were so doing, the primary mover 'bought into' the wrong philosophy, and end up supporting the looters in error - largely because most primary movers never recognised the philosophy they were living their lives by.


Post 3

Saturday, September 4, 2004 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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it seems that there is a lack of understanding that thinking, while a necessity to survival, has to be taught, or learned - and one of the things which has to be learned is its importance to one's survival qua mankind, not as something which needs to be used, but only as concretely seen as needed... until its importance and value as a human activity to be actively desired, there will always be few instances in history of high rationality... and yes, religion has played a major role in perpetuating this ignorance of reason's importance as a continuance in human activity... and it was actually only within the past one - two hundred years that the understanding of reason as an integratedness to humanness has been noted, so the future is much more bright than the struggles of the past...

Post 4

Sunday, September 5, 2004 - 6:24amSanction this postReply
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Tibor, I agree that Rand was neither an optimist nor a pessimist. Her view is encapsulated in her phrase: "Man is a being of self-made soul."

Robert, I heartily agree that thinking has to be taught, and learned. It's remarkable that children are taught all the skills they require for survival -- except the one they need most: thinking. It's assumed instead that while we don't come into the world with language, or the ability to walk, or a knowledge of science, we do come into the world knowing how to think, and therefore we don't need to learn it.

Barbara

Post 5

Sunday, September 5, 2004 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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Prof. Machan,

I do think there is a tension given that Rand often says that irrational people can only live as parasites on others.  If they lived according to their premises, they should die.  Yet the irrational have dominated most of human history.  Shouldn't the irrational progressively get weaker and the rational get stronger?

Perhaps part of the problem is that Rand stresses the "anti-conceptual" thinking of the With Doctors and Attilas.  Yet, it takes a fair amount of intelligence to dominate human history.


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Post 6

Monday, September 6, 2004 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
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Neil, please view my comments below:

"Along with her rejection of original sin, she also denied that human beings have instincts, and therefore any tendency to self-destructive or irrational behavior."

Instincts are often misunderstood by intellectuals. Instincts in animals are simply thought-free survival responses to environmental cues, naturally-selected throughout evolutionary lines. Many intellectuals maintain that survival mechanisms must be entirely absent in order for humans to be entirely volitional - this is nonsense writ large. Once "thought" enters into the picture (as in humans), a whole new ball game appears, whether any hint of survival mechanisms remain, or not.

Speaking of ball games, an illustrative analogy is available by picturing thought as if it was an extra BaseBall player on a field that, for animals, always and only has the usual nine players.

In this analogy, adding thought into the mix is like adding another baseball player in between the pitcher and the batter. Notice how this tenth player has total control of the game (without a pitch, plays cannot proceed; nobody gets a hit; nobody gets on base).

If a pitch is thrown (by the pitcher on the mound) that this additional player does not like, then he merely intercedes and stops the pitch half-way - by catching it before it reaches the batter; ie. before it can be put into play.

This is what human thought does to survival instincts; it supercedes them. Folks can CHOOSE acts decidedly and definitely contrary to their survival, such as suicide-bombing (for a sober example). Animals cannot make such choices - they act always and only on environmental cues and these cues only become more complex and comprehensive as the animal develops memories and association (protect "Master" - as he feeds and protects me).

The "selfless-ness" animals appear to show when protecting their master is from mere concrete-bound, range-of-the-moment association. You can get animals to die for you (although they don't know that they're mortal), but you cannot get animals to live for you. They cannot "associate" into the abstract realm where human living, by its nature, becomes a rich experience.


"If reason is man’s key to survival, why have there been so few periods of history when reason has gained the upper hand?"

Answer: A logical cycle underlays this process. If a man is in dire straights, then he will adopt Reason to survive. Once men have used reason to generate prosperity, some will become complacent - like the over-confident Hare, taking a nap after gaining a lead; in the race between the Tortoise and the Hare. A select few (e.g. SOLO-ists, etc) will mentally retain focus on what it is that produces prosperity from nature, on what it is that makes humans human, and on what it is that provides for the rich experience of human life in this world.

An alternative, more-optimistic view is available. If Hobbes - who helped propagate "religion" as much as (and perhaps even more than!) Aquinas, or even Augustine, did - were right about human nature, then I guarantee you that SOLOHQ, in its present, beautific form; with its grand, beneficent vision; and with its stellar, human-loving, value-seeking contributors - WOULD NOT EVEN EXIST.

To end, I will quote Dean Hall, a contributor on SOLO who recently said (on a News thread) something both relevant and profound:

" ... it's good to see that THE ONE AND ONLY HUMAN-LOVING PHILOSOPHY on the planet is coming to the attention of those who wish to elevate inanimate matter and far-from-completely-conscious organisms to a value higher than individuals of the only species capable of determining value." [caps added]

Ed

Post 7

Monday, September 6, 2004 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Neil,

What do you say to the charge that you have merely taken the classic Problem of Evil - after implicitly accepting its premises - and redirected its potentially disenfranchising properties toward a reason-based and therefore, non-theistic philosophy? This, on balance, appears to be all that you have done with your eloquent-as-usual essay here.

Re-opening old wounds incurred on the battlefield of a "problem-of-evil" war that is now over (for Objectivists, anyway), will not prove - or lead to - anything of value.

All it will accomplish is to show that we are now able - through your guided, illustrative perspective of Rand's words, carefully "re-mastered" and presented with an aura of intello-babble in order to "leave room for faith" in a godless philosophy - to re-experience amongst ourselves our former, now-transcended ignorance.

In sum, the Problem of Evil is no longer a problem (for Objectivists). Trying to get us to explain away periods of historically recorded human complacency - by appeal to the irrational guilt of non-omniscience (ie. of not being able to explain EVERYTHING) - is merely another example of worshipping the "super-natural" to the detriment of the natural.

I once dreamed of being a super-hero Neil, with hundreds of comic books to fuel this incessant, adolescent desire of mine - but then I grew up and out of this zeal - and undertook the business of real living and character-building. Now, I approach the problems of living with confident realism.

All your fervent appeals to a synoptic explanation of human back-peddling, will not detract from my (or others') pursuit of value in this world. Though we come into this world equipped with nothing more than a human mind; if developed appropriately, this is all that is needed for lifelong advancement and lifelong joy.

Your solicitation for complete explanation of the historic prevalence of marginal behavior smacks of an egalitarian world view where the majority - advances and all - is sacrificed to "save" the minority who apparently "missed the boat" of Reason.

Ed

Post 8

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 6:02amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I would argue that there is some "flaw" in human nature that makes anti-social, irrational behavior all too common.  I think this is why bad periods predominate over the good.


Post 9

Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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I would argue that there is some "flaw" in human nature that makes anti-social, irrational behavior all too common.  I think this is why bad periods predominate over the good.

Neil, if it's true that bad predominates, then wouldn't society, on balance, be: "going to hell in a hand-basket" (for lack of a better phrase)? 

And, if it's true that bad predominates, then wouldn't you agree that advancement and progress are pretty much out of the question, as long as 51% (or more) of the variation in outcome was geared at attitudes and behaviors inimical to mutual survival?

And wouldn't you agree that humans in general - and Western Civilization, in particular - have made unprecedented moral advancements regarding the issues of chattel slavery and gender equality. 

We've gone from owning folks who had different colored skin, and beating - and sometimes even burning alive - folks who had different "plumbing," to a society where it's not unusual that a black female is in charge of things, such as national security, or the FDA.

Neil, what do you have to say about these 2 key things - things that appear to be demonstrative examples of tremendous moral progress?

Ed


Post 10

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 8:49amSanction this postReply
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Machan,

I would say that Ayn Rand believes that evil does exist in mankind, but it exists in our capacity to operate -- or choose to operate -- outside the realms of brave, sober honesty and disciplined logic. 

This is a far cry from the completely useless and mentally toxic definition of "original sin" as the metaphoric eating of some metaphoric fruit.


Post 11

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 4:09pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I would say that there is moral progress, but there is also moral retrogression.  Didn't the US kill tens of thousands in Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not to mention the fire bombing of Tokyo)?  It often seems like one step forward, two steps back.  I think the phenomena of total war -- in which even innocent civilians are seen as enemy combatants (such as practiced by all sides in WW II) -- is an example of mankind's inability to get things right.


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Post 12

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 9:24pmSanction this postReply
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Very interesting discussion and topic!

I look at optimism vs. pessimism very simplistically. Is the glass half full or half empty? Is your experience of your life characterized by a sense of deprivation or by a sense of opportunity? In this respect, I think that Rand was overwhelmingly an optimist, in how she viewed her life -- at least until the last few years perhaps.

Yes, on other specific issues -- e.g., the likelihood of a free, rational society -- she did seem pessimistic at times, while at other times ("Good morning!"), she felt that the hordes of destruction had been put to rout.

But overall, I think that she was in love with the possibilities of life -- i.e., the possibility for being happy. Hers was a philosophy characterized by love of life, rather than fear of death -- and those are the two philosophical correlates of optimism and pessimism in one's overall psyche.

Best 2 all,
Roger Bissell


Post 13

Thursday, September 9, 2004 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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"I would say that there is moral progress, but there is also moral retrogression.  Didn't the US kill tens of thousands in Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not to mention the fire bombing of Tokyo)?  It often seems like one step forward, two steps back."

Neil, this is exactly what I mean, and it seems contradictory - now, integrate this for a minute:

As a general rule or principle, "one step forward, two steps back" PRECLUDES overall advancement, don't you agree??

Your point regarding war is well taken, and wars will be with us as long as statism is. The formula for war runs like this:

1) Statism stifles progress

2) stifled progress causes poverty

3) poverty unleashes illegitimate, otherwise-preventable "necessity"

4) illegitimate, otherwise-preventable "necessity" is "treated" with inflation - but effects are only transient

5) when the whole country, on average, gets to "negative dollars in savings" like we did in 2000-2001, then the Straussian/Machiavellian "solution" is war - but again, effects are only transient

6) In sum, inflation and war are but temporary solutions to the permanent problem of producing wealth (and a critical mass of the public has not yet been made "aware" of this)

7) the permanent solution to this "problem of production" is unbridled capitalism - and, again, a critical mass of the public is not yet aware of this

8) education will solve this problem once and for all

------------
"I think the phenomena of total war -- in which even innocent civilians are seen as enemy combatants (such as practiced by all sides in WW II) -- is an example of mankind's inability to get things right."

Neil, see my comments above.
------------
Ed


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