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Post 40

Thursday, October 7, 2004 - 5:08pmSanction this postReply
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I must confess to enjoying the music of John Coltrane. Not so much his early music doing Jazz traditionals for Miles Davis, but his mid to late period music (especially the albums made with Tyner, Garrison and Jones).

What do you guys think of Coltrane?

George

PS: my favorite Coltrane album is Crescent, closely followed by Sun Ship.

I posted this in the General forum but had little response, I'll give it another try here.

George




Post 41

Thursday, October 7, 2004 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
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Linz, you incorrigible brat.  You really know how to hurt a girl.  ;)

Just for that I am going to throw pennies at you every time I catch you dancing.  Wait, perhaps those gold dollar coins would be better -- they're heavier.  :)




Post 42

Thursday, October 7, 2004 - 5:49pmSanction this postReply
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Coltrane was a genius on his instrument, and deserves respect as such.  The first time I heard Giant Steps, I was absolutely blown away that someone could improvise over chords that change so rapidly - and what a cool chord progression to begin with! 

As a tenor saxophonist myself, I once tried to learn the Giant Steps solo by ear, just as a challenge.  With a week or two of hard work, I was able to (barely) play through the first chorus or so, but I eventually quit working on it.  That's a project I should resurrect - thanks for reminding me!

Anyhow, I love listening to him on ballads too, especially Naima.  However, I don't particularly care for his free form or stream of concioussness works.  I think they are  often self indulgent at the expense of the listener.

My favorite tenor players are Stan Getz and Joe Henderson.  




Post 43

Thursday, October 7, 2004 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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While I grew up with the cauterwauling headbangers in high school, where disco was forbidden, I have to admit that my "shame album" is the SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER soundtrack...and "Doctor Diabolical Disco Duck" made it worse by exposing me to the wonders of dance and disco! But he also exposed me to some wonderful jazz pieces, even some that I learned influenced my favorite prog bands (for example, I learned that Pink Floyd's "Us and Them" was inspired by Miles Davis's KIND OF BLUE.) SKETCHES OF SPAIN has become a big influence on me, and Stan Getz's FOCUS is nothing short of an artistic masterpiece.
What really stuck with me was Chris's writings on movie soundtracks, especially those of Miklas Roza, career parallels the struggles of Mario Lanza, with the accusations of his movie work not being "serious." Roza was able to tough it out, though. I was already a fan of Maurice Jarre, because the band Renaissance had used a bit of the DR. ZHIVAGO theme on their song "Can You Understand." Chris's suggestions of Roza and Bernard Hermann added to my love of soundtrack scores, which at their best stand alone as great achievements on their own. (By the way, Bernard Hermann was sampled to good effect on a Busta Rhymes album, many rappers stand on the shoulders of giants, too.)
When artists listen to each other, we all benefit.



Post 44

Thursday, October 7, 2004 - 9:25pmSanction this postReply
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"It's nothing, bro', watch your back and shine on!"

LOL, Jeanine. But you know that I am a neither a Randian, nor a Jungian, but a Floydian, so I will "shine on...you crazy diamond."





Post 45

Thursday, October 7, 2004 - 9:28pmSanction this postReply
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Jeanine,

Re your signature,

Pyrophora of Cyprus {))(*)((}
Cynic, peripatetik
nothing changes

Nothing? Careful...any more metaphysical transgressions of that sort, and you'll get a nickname like "Parmenides of San Francisco." :-)


C'mon, Irfan...every good Rush fans know that changes aren't permanant...but change is! Old wave, New wave, they're all permanant waves...



Post 46

Thursday, October 7, 2004 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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Irfan writes:
Actually, I like "Speed of Love" and "Dog Years." 
I'll try not to hold that against you. :)  My main beef with bad Rush songs is the lyrics - I simply think that some of Neil's lyrics don't fit well into a rock song.  Sometimes they make me cringe.  (Yet, the lyrics of his that I like are my favorite song lyrics of all time)

As for Necromancer, yes, it is a bit ridiculous, but I think it has its moments.




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Post 47

Thursday, October 7, 2004 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
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Msr. Perigo.

Pardon me, but this courtesan is offended by your uncivilizedly misuse of language.  Dr. Diabolical Dialectician is not a whore.

He is a well-lettered person of measured prose, and virtuous courtier with a fiendish sense of timing.  And he is cute.

But he has not, to my knowlege, earned the distinction you grant so promiscuously.  One erodes acheivement by granting its designations so lightly.  We do not call anyone who can play a clarinet without endangering themselves a musician, certainly if they have not demonstarted any ability to command a price on the market.  Yet for all of his many talents, I have never heard Dr. Diabolical to demonstrate excellence in my own profession.

Dr. Sciabarra is not a whore.  Chris is a slut.

Let us identify things as what they are.

I hope that's settled.

miss shiris, 'escort'
(...oh look, I missed a phone call while I was out!)




Post 48

Thursday, October 7, 2004 - 11:00pmSanction this postReply
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Post 39

Thursday, October 7 - 5:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jeanine,

Re your signature,

Pyrophora of Cyprus  {))(*)((}
Cynic, peripatetik
nothing changes

Nothing? Careful...any more metaphysical transgressions of that sort, and you'll get a nickname like "Parmenides of San Francisco." :-)

Irfan-

You are quite right; terrible association to set up.  Multae apologiae.  I intended to borrow a line from the musical version of Les Miersables; I was thinking specifically of Nietzsche's doctrine of eternal recurrence.  The statement was not metaphysical in Rand's sense, but political in the classical one.  Classical historians and contemporary feminists have convinced me of a cyclical theory of history endlessly alternating the same essential forms of society.  Myself, I relish our Hellenistic decadent times... but I confess, my profession is not a place to learn a sense of progress.  The West has lost the artistry of my vocation much like a Chinese emporer discovering that no one in the world knows any longer how to repair the palace clocktower. 

But Parmendies!  Pshaw!  Throw me in the direction of Heraclitus, if you must.  The way up and the way down are one and the same!  Learn to hear the logos!  You can never step in the same river twice!
 
I seriously prefer something like Aristotle's dialectical synthesis.  That said, if those rwo are choices... all I want, is a whole lot of ex~cess!  Push me off the straight and triangular to the left with Heralcitus.  And I like Fire.

Otherhandedly, if we're talking Pre-Socratics, I suppose you could tar me with a Pythagorean brush with a little justice.  There are common proportions.  But Pythagoreans stole it from people who stole it from us anyway.  So blame him, not me.  He was right about beans, though... typical intrincist frozen concrete... (sigh).

much amusement,

Pyrophora of Cyprus...

who will accept the name
"Heraclitia of San Francisco", if given

anyone who tries naming me
'"Heraclitia the Franciscan"' will get hurt




Post 49

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 5:34amSanction this postReply
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James, just look at these lyrics.  This is "Tom Sawyer" by Rush -- one of my all-time favorites, and the one song that can bring me out of my darkest depths of dispair.  The drum solo by Neil Peart is a rolling thunder of skill and mastery.

Tom Sawyer

A modern-day warrior
Mean mean stride,
Today's Tom Sawyer
Mean mean pride.

Though his mind is not for rent
Don't put him down as arrogant
His reserve, a quiet defense
Riding out the day's events
The river

What you say about his company
Is what you say about society
Catch the mist, catch the myth
Catch the mystery, catch the drift

The world is, the world is
Love and life are deep
Maybe as his skies are wide

Today's Tom Sawyer
He gets high on you
And the space he invades
He gets by on you

No his mind is not for rent
To any god or government
Always hopeful, yet discontent
He knows changes aren't permanent
But change is

What you say about his company
Is what you say about society
Catch the witness, catch the wit
Catch the spirit, catch the spit

The world is, the world is
Love and life are deep
Maybe as his eyes are wide

Exit the warrior
Today's Tom Sawyer
He gets high on you
And the energy you trade
He gets right on to the friction of the day





Post 50

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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deleted

(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:27pm)




Post 51

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Irfan. Now Ratt is stuck in my head, eternally revolving on the refrain.



(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/08, 10:12am)




Post 52

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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deleted
(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:27pm)




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Post 53

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
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Been everywhere. :)

Duckie the Slut




Post 54

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 12:13pmSanction this postReply
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Ms. Iannolo-

Stop abusing the system!

charmed mistress shiris.




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Post 55

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 12:21pmSanction this postReply
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I have to pick on the supporters of Eminem here. They mention that it is good "work-out" music and such. Well I have to say that isn't that just when the moral decay slips in without notice. That is the whole point of the melodic beats that put you in a un-conscious stupor. Just so that so called artists like eminem can then add words such as the following lyrics from the track "Kill You" on the album "The Marshall Mathers

LP"


"
They said I can't rap about bein broke no more
They ain't say I can't rap about coke no more
(AHHH!) Slut, you think I won't choke no whore
til the vocal cords don't work in her throat no more?!
(AHHH!) These motherfuckers are thinkin I'm playin
Thinkin I'm sayin the shit cause I'm thinkin it just to be sayin it
(AHHH!) Put your hands down bitch, I ain't gon' shoot you
I'ma pull +YOU+ to this bullet, and put it through you
(AHHH!) Shut up slut, you're causin too much chaos
Just bend over and take it like a slut, okay Ma?
"Oh, now he's raping his own mother, abusing a whore,
snorting coke, and we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?"
You god damn right BITCH, and now it's too late
I'm triple platinum and tragedies happen in two states
I invented violence, you vile venomous volatile bitches
vain Vicadin, vrinnn Vrinnn, VRINNN! [*chainsaw revs up*]
Texas Chainsaw, left his brains all
danglin from his neck, while his head barely hangs on
Blood, guts, guns, cuts
Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts"

We had an example of eminem lyrics that were not as bad, so i figured we should get the whole scope of things.



Post 56

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 2:29pmSanction this postReply
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Well I have to say that isn't that just when the moral decay slips in without notice.

Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here.

And you can pick on me all you like, as I will listen to whatever bloody music I please.  Since I have a better sense of life than 99% of the people I've encountered in my lifetime, I'm not really worried about it.  :)




Post 57

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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On Eminem to Mr. Lewis:

I'm not that familiar with Eminem, nor with rap or hip-hop to any great degree, and have never been very attracted to it.  But the lyrics you put up don't have the turn-off effect perhaps you would expect it to.  I am not claiming it is great art, but I count it to the artist's credit that never having heard these words, I can *hear* the rhythm to it, much the same way one can in the Norse sagas, via consonantal rhymes.  I also strongly suspect that the words themselves, which are just invoking the latest ephemeral panic buttons, are not the point.  The point is the precise is to force the listener into an exotic emotional state, at which this is a fairly effective piece.

Umberto Eco's concept of "hyperreality" may be helpful; i.e., the effect of how once an pop art culture that originates in the popularization of representations gets going, those symbols then get used in new ways and in different disjunctions, and eventually create a conversation of symbols without original representation, which are then reincarnated in social practices which fulfill artistic images that have no originals.

Eminem is well aware that the images he refers to are stereotypes that conventional types use as bogeymen; what he's doing is pushing buttons.   He clearly shows be knows they're bogeymen; "shut up,bitch, you're causing too much chaos" is putting the patriarch's words to Don Juan's actions- it is a specific lance to the hypocrisy of the "courtly protectors" of women who spend their time bemoaning rape and rap music while actively maintaining a misogynist culture that they wash their hands of.

Also, consider: Eminem is obviously directly provoking the guardians of morality, but the whole thrust of his ability to provoke depends precisely on his audience understanding them better than they ought.  He is here using imagery taken from stereotyped porn formulas.  I would seriously make a note that this work won;t speak to Objectivists precisely because they embrace one of the few ethics that *doesn't* promote hypocrisy in this way.  I find myself laughing out loud at the angry response of the patriarch to this.  By the very quickness of the anticipated patriarch's reaction, he reveals he knows a little too much about both sides of the official opposing bad guys.  Eminem is laying bait for enemies to reveal themselves by howling in rage.

He's not really interested in the particulars, which even in this piece he switches back and forth on.  What he is doing is constructing an idealized image of "your worst nightmare".  He let's this slip when he says "...thinking I'm saying the shit cause I'm thinking it just to be sayin it."  This confusing construction translates as: "you think I'm saying what I say in order to believe it just to say it."  What exactly does that mean?  I say it's a displaced reference; everyone knows that with Eminem, "half the things I say, I say just to make you mad."  Yet here he is saying he really means it, or rather, that people think he really means it just so he can say it well.

Now, whatever else one might say about Eminem, he chooses his words with care, to cause the maximum emotional response to the listener.  Yet here he has his theatrical audience- the moralizers- accusing him of what works out to be an extremely *serious* reference... the use of language as a tool to push someone into a state where they take on an aesthetic persona for the purpose of artistic excellence.  I can't believe Eminem would use this reference, in the context of a song which clearly pushes *others'* buttons via an instrumental/performative use of language, if he wasn't quietly revealing his own bag of tricks.

Eminem is a performance artist is the serious sense, in that the artistic medium is in the *interaction* between performer and audience.  He is setting up the viewer to watch a contest where the rapper plays the prim and proper bourgieousie like a drum.  He is more quietly laughing at the audience who gave him all the gold records without realizing they are part of another game Enimem is playing.

Yes, he ~very carefully~ uses horribly ugly words.  But he clearly divests himself of any attachment to those references in words understood by is literal audience- the fans who make him rich- while using those same words to create a spectacle of his intermediary audience- the moral and proper crowd.  He is simply using any tools at hand- "Blood, guts, guns, cuts/Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts" as ammunition, with full awareness that his tools are a hodge-podge of stereotypes.  One has to understand that today's youth culture, precisely his audience of mostly white, young middle-class hip-hop enthusiasts, are used to this deluge of carping on their imagery... what they are watching is Eminem play the bogeyman of everything that would make their parents faint... and what they are really watching isn't so much Eminem but how easily those same wise elders are manipulated.

That said, let me be clear I am arguing that Eminem's work here has artistic value.  My view as to its ethical value and cultural politics is complicated.  I am not saying it is the highest piece of art... simply that properly understood it is much more clever,and much more serious, than in seems.

And honestly, if I seem to be reading in a bit, please understand I would have missed all this a year ago, but Eminem's methods here are *extremely* similar to those that my own profession practised seriously employs; i.e., the ars personae.  When he says, "I invented violence, you vile venomous volatile bitches", he is doing two things ("tragedies happen in two states" is a double entendre).  First, he is making an mundanely absurd statement and laughing at the proper people who will take it literally.  But on another level, he is merely speaking in accuracy that he is taking on a certain persona by taking on a persona- not of violence, but the archetype of masculine violence from a patriarchal perspective.  Thus, taking on these attributes, the claim "I invented violence" is not absurd at all.  And he gives it away by referring in the same line, and in other lines as I have previously noted, to an analogue "castrating female."

I'm triple platinum and tragedies happen in two states
I invented violence, you vile venomous volatile bitches
vain Vicadin, vrinnn Vrinnn, VRINNN! [*chainsaw revs up*]
Texas Chainsaw, left his brains all
danglin from his neck, while his head barely hangs on
Blood, guts, guns, cuts
Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts"

He concludes the piece by first invoking "two states", then a classic image of a castrating female (venemous vile bitches), and then proceeds to invoke a familiar pop-culture image of violence (Texas Chainsaw), and then lists every association he can find.  This is a classic, formulaic, by the book, Pagan invocation- he specifically employs imagery that screams of the Hindu goddess Kali.  This locks into place that Eminem in taking on the part of a persona.  What he is saying, in between the lines, is that it's really not protection from violence that the moralizers are scared of, but the image of their charges turning on them in necklaces of skulls and robes of severed hands.

Eminem is assuming as image; an incarnation of the Urban Predator, and unveiling himself before one audience while getting his rhetorical audience to take it seriously.  If his lyrics are judged directly, they are not much art, but if one judges the same lyrics by their ability to create effect, the fiendish trap of situation he sets up for his opponents, via a persona, is cleverly drawn art.  He is indeed triple platinum.

Still, this headbanging caterwauler far prefers the honorable Ludwig van.  And platinum isn't my color of choice.   (oh, BTW, Rand's "platinum gown" in Night of January 16th, originally Penthouse legend is a classical erotic reference; Rand has a hostile character let it slip.  And the trial's still going on.)

Regards,

Jeanie Shiris Ring  {))(*)((}
r.h.i.p.   





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Post 58

Friday, October 8, 2004 - 10:51pmSanction this postReply
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Someone has to say it, and it might as well be me. The lyrics posted here and in other parts of SoloHQ, presented as good poetry -- are gaaawd awful! Have none of you ever read real poetry?

Just because someone sticks into lyrics the statement that "It's good to like yourself" -- or "It's good to hate yourself," doesn't make him a poet!

Jeeez!

Barbara



Post 59

Saturday, October 9, 2004 - 12:21amSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

Marvellous, as usual! :-) :-)

MH




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