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Post 0

Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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A good set here, one of the reasons why I keep coming back - a lot of intelligent and inquisitive persons abound here.Would have been greater to have known of this years - better yet, to have had this even further years ago....which means there is a bit more of growing up in the world, coming of age.

Post 1

Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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The following are some of the current "moderation" rules for SOLOHQ competitor ObjectivismOnLine.Net: 

"(1) This site supports discussion of (a) the principles of Objectivism, as defined by the works of Ayn Rand and supported by the Ayn Rand Institute, and (b) their application to various fields. Therefore participants must not use the website to spread ideas explicitly contrary to or unrelated to Objectivism. Examples include religion, communism, "moral tolerationism," and libertarianism. Honest questions about such subjects are permitted. However, since the focus of this forum is the philosophy of Objectivism, such questions are not encouraged.
(2) This forum will not tolerate personal insults and posts that contain no intellectual content. This includes sarcastic comments and accusations of irrationality and immorality. If you disagree with another poster, attack the argument, not the poster. If you think that a poster is behaving in a clearly irrational or immoral manner, contact the moderators.
(3) This forum will not tolerate intellectual dishonesty or fraud -- for example, claiming to speak for Objectivism; claiming as an Objectivist position a view contradicted in Objectivist literature; or misrepresenting either the source of a message or one’s own identity.
(4) This forum will not tolerate rude or insulting comments about Ayn Rand, her philosophy of Objectivism, the Ayn Rand Institute, the representatives and supporters of the Institute, or the adherents of the philosophy.
A single instance of violation of these rules will be grounds for banning the offender from participating in this forum."


The following are some of the current proposed "moderation" rule changes from their most impressive poster Steven Spiecher:

"I would like to suggest something along the lines of the following to be included into the forum rules of behavior.


This forum will not tolerate any disrespect towards the personnage of Ayn Rand, her philosophy of Objectivism, the Ayn Rand Institute or the representatives and supporters of the Institute, or the adherents of the philosophy. Further, it is not permitted to use this forum for promotion of ideas that are antithetical to Objectivism, or promotion of organizations that are considered to be enemies of Objectivism. This includes, but is not limited to, libertarianism and the Libertarian party, David Kelley's perversion of Objectivism and his organization The Objectivist[sic] Center, religion, communism, and the like. A single instance of violation of these rules will be grounds for banning the offender from participating in this forum."




For the record, these fine fellows recently "tolerated" me for a week or so with simply stunning ad hominem attacks bearing no shred of rationality nor hint of argumentation. Then they gave me 3 "warnings" in 10 minutes flat and put me "under moderation." Then they "tolerated" me -- writing extremely conservatively -- for one whole more day before banning me completely, without formal notification or explanation. 

Can any group of people be more evil than this?


Post 2

Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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"Can any group of people be more evil than this?"

Nazis? Communists? Serial Killers? Pedophiles? Environmentalists? Christians? Muslims? Need I go on?

For the record, these quotes sound like preposterous ARI tripe, and can only hurt objectivism by furthering the stereotype that objectivism is a "cult". At the very least, this website, objectivismonline.net clearly is one-- replace the name "Ayn Rand" with "L ron hubbard" and this could easily be the rules for a scientology forum.
But this hardly makes them top of the heap evil, or even close to it. You can talk to me about evil when they actually hurt or kill someone.

Post 3

Monday, December 13, 2004 - 10:40amSanction this postReply
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No one will always agree with any other person's definition of when to interject order into a free discussion. But walking the tightrope between anarchy and excessive control requires recognition of the fact that things are only true within context. That job is done exceptionally well here, and is the reason that I choose this site rather than others.

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Post 4

Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 12:59amSanction this postReply
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Let's test your liberal ground rules here:

Perigo, Hospers, Branden and ~most~ objectivists are half-crazed warmongers promoting an evil, impractical and dangerous U.S. foreign policy which has caused massive needless death, injury and property damage in Iraq, plus a shocking deterioration of U.S. prestige abroad, as well as an incredible increase in the public debt, fascist "security" measures and an increased risk of terrorism at home. And it will only be a matter of time before George Bush, faced with declining military enlistments, a growing Iraqi insurgency and a military on the verge of mutiny, will either have to pull out of Iraq and watch it turn into a theocracy, or he will have to reimpose a draft to maintain troop levels for an indefinite American occupation. Don't say nobody predicted it.


Post 5

Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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"Half-crazed"???

Not only do you suggest we're insane...you also accuse us of inconsistency...which, by Objectivist standards, MAY BE EVEN WORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;^)

--Bidinotto the Warmonger

Post 6

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 2:05amSanction this postReply
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A good statement. I remember how the WeTheLiving lists collapsed because of excessive moderation. The last straw for me was having one of my posts actually edited, without any prior notice and without my okay. WTL as I left it would not have posted Mencken, nor Rand for that matter, on the guidelines then being enforced. (This was a few years ago; the lists maybe be better now, though Atlantis postings still appear sparse. Anyway, I think beyond a certain point, if you keep squeezing the neck, strangulation will occur.)

 

As liberal as possible, albeit not with unlimited tolerance for trolls, is the only way to go in this kind of forum, in my book. If I constantly have to circumnavigate pins and needles lest I too unselfconsciously speak in my own voice, I'm not going to waste my time.

 

Other [threads causing ire] may be about current politics, anarchism vs. monarchism, or any number of other topics with fierce disagreement.

 

Yes, I always get het up over the anarchism versus monarchism false dichotomy. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)


Post 7

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 2:10amSanction this postReply
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Don't feed the trolls, Biddi-Bob.

Post 8

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 8:27amSanction this postReply
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Fulwiler:

 

Your loutish behavior in hi-jacking this particular post lays bare the depths of depravity to which some will go to stifle the voice of reason.  It is appropriate in only one sense, it is a public admission that you know who your enemy is and that you fear him.

 

Perigo, Hospers, Branden and ~most~ objectivists are half-crazed warmongers

 

Robert beat me too it.  Half-crazed, how dare you!  Once Objectivists decide on a course that is right and necessary, they put 100% of their effort into it.  We are fully crazed or nothing.;)

 

promoting an evil, impractical and dangerous U.S. foreign policy which has caused massive needless death, injury and property damage in Iraq,

 

You appear to confuse us with our adversaries.

 

plus a shocking deterioration of U.S. prestige abroad, 

 

You mean estimation in the eyes of others, image over substance?  Our image is enhanced in the eyes of those who matter in the world.  Decent freedom loving people everywhere approve of our efforts in Iraq.  If you want to inform yourself, compile a list of those who do not approve.  It might open your eyes. You used the word evil.  How are you defining it—as anything you don’t like?

 

as well as an incredible increase in the public debt,

 

Nothing spent on the defense of this nation should be a matter of regret.  If you mourn for the treasury, I suggest you concentrate upon the incredible pile of money wasted on education, agriculture, health care, corporate welfare and the legions of needless nanny programs of all sort.   

 

fascist "security" measures

 

The ‘fascist’ security measures you decry have been in effect since Carter signed FISA into law in 1980.  Where have you been on that issue for the last 25 years?

 

and an increased risk of terrorism at home.

 

How do you assess this ‘risk’?  When terrorists struck the trade center the first time, we followed your advice and took no effective action.  Did we make friends?  Did inaction prevent the attack upon our embassies or the USS Cole or the even more devastating attack on the trade towers?

 

And it will only be a matter of time before George Bush, faced with declining military enlistments,

 

Bush, Bush, Bush.  Are you irrational enough to think he is a king?  You'd do better to keep an eye on the Congress.

 

Military enlistments always peak at the onset of war and always decline as a war proceeds. 

 

a growing Iraqi insurgency 

 

It is not an Iraqi insurgency.  The Iraqi people are not rising up.  It is all manner of foreign jihadists supported by some the most vicious, dangerous regimes in the history of the world.  It is appropriate that we are locked in mortal combat against them.

 

and a military on the verge of mutiny,

 

Really, from which bodily orifice did you pull this bit of whimsy?

 

will either have to pull out of Iraq

 

Only if the left co-opts the media, however, 3 networks no longer control the news.  Media outlets are far more numerous and diverse.  I doubt you will return us to those thrilling days of Kumbaya that warm the hearts of aging hippies and professional protestors.

 

and watch it turn into a theocracy,

 

The Iraqi people do not want a theocracy.  But, even if this worst case scenario of yours comes true, could Iraq be any worse off than it was under Sadaam?

 

or he will have to reimpose a draft to maintain troop levels

 

This is just silly.  Training Iraqis to take over has been slow, but it is ongoing. 

 

for an indefinite American occupation.

 

You are so very careless with words.  We do not possess or settle land in Iraq.  There is no possession or control of Iraq.  We are simply staving off the wolves until a government can get on its feet.

 

Don't say nobody predicted it.

Everyone on the left is predicting it, so if you are bucking for the Nostradamus Chair at some liberal University, I would suggest you find a new topic.

 

In closing, if you want to continue arguing along these boorish lines, move it to another post.

(Edited by Robert Davison on 6/14, 8:29am)

(Edited by Robert Davison on 6/14, 8:39am)


Post 9

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 8:35amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

This article speaks volumes about the benevolent atmosphere you and Linz have created here.   As many have attested, Solo stands in stark contrast to sites like ObjectivistForum.  These rules could not be more fair, if they were designed by the non-existent Gods themselves.


Post 10

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Robert D.'s statement. Maybe a link for this article should be placed permanently in an obvious place so everyone can refer to it.

Jim


Post 11

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Very good article. I especially noticed that you kept it to principles and not personalities. That is the mark of a first-class mind.

Mark D. Fulwiler,

Wanna test the liberal ground rules? OK.

You are a sniveling scumbag who uses defamation of the good and the people here to call attention to yourself. For lack of a better word, let's just say you are an "asshole."

Michael


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Post 12

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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Mark,

I don't think there's anything in your post that hasn't been said, here on SOLO, multiple times, without resulting in moderation or banning of the poster ... so I don't really see the point of the "test" unless it's to try to hijack the thread into a discussion of the war on Iraq (which it has, at least briefly, succeeded in doing).

FYI, I agree with your general characterization of what the people you name are supporting, but disagree with your evaluation of them as "half-crazed." While they are in error, and while they are possessed of a remarkable facility for walling off their error in their minds from objective examination under the same standards which they apply to other subjects (presumably so as to preserve that error intact because they don't want to give that error up), they aren't remarkably pathological in that respect. People do that all the time. It's just that this particular topic is vexatious enough for it to be obvious.

I would regard Perigo et al as "half-crazed" only if their resort to screaming "Saddamite!" over and over, in order to protect their error, was coupled with use of the measures which they have access to to shut off the people they are screaming it at entirely. The fact that they do not use those measures is evidence that they are still committed generally to reasoned debate, even as they seek to carve out an exception in the one area. And others on SOLO, of course, are willing to explore the issue even if they've not yet seen their errors.

Regards,
Tom Knapp

Post 13

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
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Is everyone here aware that they are addressing, as if it were a new post, a comment by Fool-wiler posted last December? I'm not sure he's even around to read these comments.

In any case, as David M. Brown points out, why feed this troll? 


Post 14

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 10:40amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the comments, everyone.  Just FYI, the troll left the building months and months ago.  I think he was angry that everyone ignored him.

Andre, sorry I never thanked you for the interesting contrast.

David, thanks for the typo mention.  Fixed it.  It was originally entered in Word, and I think I let the spell-check muck with it accidently.

James, I've linked to this article on the front of the forum page (the Forum FAQ link), and on the About page of SOLO.  But there's so much on this site, it's not surprising that it gets missed.  I'll try to figure out a more obvious place.

Thanks also to Robert Malcom, James Kilbourne, and MSK and Robert Davison.  Very nice comments from all of you.


Post 15

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
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Sorry guys.

In the heat of the moment, I didn't look at the date. I thought this was a new article. (Mistakes happen with me about once or twice a year  //;-)

Still, I stand by my comments as I wrote them.

Michael

Post 16

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
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Ah, I remember Mark Fulwiler. I even thanked him once here. ;-)

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Post 17

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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David,

Some WeTheLiving lists (like Psychology, which never had a lot of traffic) eventually switched to no moderation.

But WeTheLiving is now closing down.  New posts stopped May 31 and the archives will be taken down on June 30.

Robert Campbell


Post 18

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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while they are possessed of a remarkable facility for walling off their error in their minds from objective examination under the same standards which they apply to other subjects
Yes, I find that's true of persons I disagree with on any substantive matter, they are so remarkable in their walling-off facility there. Is this enlightenment coming from the same guy who claims that George Bush is more immoral than Osama bin Laden?
 
I distinguish sharply between those who argue that our invading Iraq was strategically mistaken and those who argue that it is morally bad per se, as if Saddam somehow had an inalienable right to keep torturing and oppressing the Iraqi citizenry. Those who believe that any war is immoral in and of itself because innocents do die in war would have to argue that even a war against Saddam's regime waged by the on-site Iraqi people alone is "immoral." In the process of exerting the force required to topple him, innocents would die. Innocents died in the fighting of the American Revolution also. Immoral for GW and the rest to have gone ahead with it?
 
The extent to which I find opponents of the war focusing narrowly on isolated facts and debates suggests that, if some proponents of the war do indeed compartmentalize in the process of their advocacy, as I don't doubt, that that process of compartmentalization is hardly alien to opponents of the invasion either. One need only peruse such a highly selective, anti-American scam-site as anti-war.com--or even some of the rantings posted at Rational Review. One would never know from some of these guys that Saddam had used chemical weapons, subsidized terrorism, had an atomic bomb program, engaged in a persistent policy of "cheat and retreat" since the conclusion of the first Gulf War, played constant footsie with the UN inspectors, etc. One would never know that it does not require a full-scale standard-issue military invasion for a relatively weak country to nonetheless provide support to a terrorist assault. One would never know that Saddam's dictatorial and murderous ways, enmity toward the U.S., territorial ambitions, pursuit of WMD, and support of terrorism are not matters reasonably in dispute.


Post 19

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 5:01pmSanction this postReply
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David,

See? I shouldn't have allowed myself even the small digression I did, because some people will take a small digression as an invitation to change the subject of the thread entirely. This thread (which I, like several others, failed to notice was months stale) is pretty much about the parameters of discussion on an Objectivist forum (and in some respects, on any forum).

If you want to discuss the war on Iraq, pray find or start a thread on the war on Iraq. I'll be glad to bash it up with you there, or wherever. As a matter of fact, I couldn't ask for better starting points than those set forth in your post.

Regards,
Tom Knapp

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