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Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:55amSanction this postReply
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Another fine piece, Tibor. I've been enjoying your articles even if I haven't responded to all of them.

I do think if we stuck to this for what we are proud and ashamed of, we could come closer to avoiding all that ethnic and racial pride and hatred that has wrought such hell on earth upon the human race.


I've been thinking a lot about this. Volition doesn't enter conscious thought for most folk. They don't reflect about it and so they have no awareness about what they are truly capable of.

To be proud of the right thing requires one to be aware that they are capable of initiating a change in the first place. To be aware of it consciously rather than at the vague sense of life level.

Regarding the phrase, "I'm proud of you," few phrases evoke pride in a student like that one. I only say that when they really have achieved something that I guided them toward. In teaching music lessons, I have found "I'm proud of you" to be an extremely powerful phrase for the student. But you aren't concerned here about the student. You're concerned about how I feel. It's proper to feel proud in offering guidance that a student takes and benefits from. In a sense, the student's achievement is a result of my choice to offer guidance. In a far greater sense, the student's achievement is a result of the student taking that guidance and acting on their own.

I'm trying to imagine what kind of pride a man on a deserted island might feel. What do you think about that?

(Edited by Lance Moore on 1/14, 12:58am)


Post 1

Friday, January 14, 2005 - 7:19amSanction this postReply
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I imagine 'Wilson' caught a lot of that thought during the stay on "Cast Away' - an excellent movie, by the way.  Perhaps the best exampling of pride was the success, finally, of making fire - Tom Hanks dancing before the flames whooping it up - one knew there was pride, because he had made FIRE.

Post 2

Friday, January 14, 2005 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
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Right on the money, Tibor.  Unearned pride and unearned guilt carry the same weight.

I have gone through the same process with my heritage, which I wrote about earlier this year.

Regards,
Jennifer


Post 3

Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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I agree that on a desert island one can easily be proud of innumerable accomplishments. Pride tends to be a non-competitive attitude, directed primarily at what one has done well, regardless of any comparison.  It is envy or a sense of superiority that would be impossible on a desert island!

Post 4

Friday, January 14, 2005 - 5:17pmSanction this postReply
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Wow! Tibor, what a delightful piece.


Post 5

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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Very Good Tibor, especially for us parents. I admit, I am sometimes tempted to take credit for how my children turn out (are turning out). They are very intelligent, ambitous, happy children. I am often complimented on certain of these aspects. "You are such a wonderful father" is something I cringe at. Because I am not. And because I have nothing to do with certain of my childrens choices and acheivements. Yet the tendency is for me to feel X, and to label it as pride. But pride is something *they* should feel, not me.

John

Post 6

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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That's the consequence of that 'clay' mindset of Christianity, that you supposedly 'molded' those children.....

Post 7

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 6:06amSanction this postReply
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Tibor,

I think the purpose of the statement "I am proud of ..." determines what is meant by it. You are right that there is a predominance of parents out there who are actually proud of their own "molding" of their children, but the phrase can actually be used terrifically, if the purpose is not second-handed. We can use the phrase properly with anybody when we wish to express our pride in who they are.

I use it sometimes with my friends, including my wife, whenever their actions impress me greatly. It is justice. If Kelly says to me or I say to her, "I'm proud of you," we are saying that we have a respect for what we've done and what we've achieved. I think the same can go for children in the same context. And we can be proud of ourselves as parents if we do NOT attempt to mold. I can be proud of myself whenever my daughter does something great if I know that I objectively stayed out of her way so that she could be great. But I can't be proud of her achievements as if I were the one who "molded" them. There are so few really moral people in our lives, so I'm very happy when I actually feel like saying, "I'm proud of you."


Post 8

Sunday, May 1, 2005 - 10:08amSanction this postReply
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Dr. Machan:

Hello, and thank you for this thought-provoking brief article. The more I have thought about your words and those of the thoughtful people who have responded to your words, the more it seems to me that you are under-socializing pride.

Back in 1990 my brother remarked to me: "I was so proud that you are my brother." The mixed tense was sensible in the context. He was expressing some of what he had felt as he witnessed me delivering a eulogy at the memorial service for Jerry, my then recently deceased lover of 22 years. I had recounted Jer's amazing range and levels of talent. I had told the story of our struggle for and achievement of happiness, in the midst of an enormously hostile society. And so forth.

When my brother used proud in his expression of what he felt, I'm pretty sure he got it exactly right. We might say he should try to stop having such unindividualistic feelings. We might say he should try to understand and report his feelings as reduced to purely individualistic primitive elements. I doubt he would be feeling or saying things more truly if he followed such advice.

One evening on the (step)maternal grandparents' farm in western Oklahoma, when my brother and I were grades-schoolers, someone brought around to the house the stallion named Red. He was not used for riding, only for something we would rather not know about at that age. He was very spirited and would throw men right off if they were foolish enough to get on him. Grandpa was saying the usual things about how Red could not be ridden. Daddy said, "I'll ride him." Grandpa warned against it, saying "You'll break your neck!" They managed to get Red saddled. Daddy got up on him. Red bucked and bucked, but Daddy stayed on. He reined that horse, full run, onto the quarter-mile dirt road to the highway. It was getting dark, and we couldn't see what was happening. It was such a suspense. Daddy came riding back on Red, who had by then become gentle as could be.

What my brother and I felt was pride. That is its name. We were proud that our father had done it and that he was our father.

To be sure, when we became men, we put away childish things. Nonetheless, the same sort of pride in kin, or in those who have become our friends, remains. As adults, should we always disapprove that feeling, dissolve that feeling, quick and total, into others?

Stephen


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