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Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 5:01amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

This is a masterful analysis, truly excellent. Thank you.


Post 1

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:53amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

Very good article. Thank you. I like your closing point very much.

"In a perfect world all people would choose to exercise their reason and many of these challenges would be non-issues. Rand’s ideas teach one the methods to achieve perfection in one's own life, in spite of whatever state in which the world may find itself. "

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Post 2

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

What a powerful, well-written statement.  It makes the case, very clearly, that ignoring one's own natural state is a violation of the very concept of integrity.  I applaud you, and hope this piece helps to shake up those who question the morality of being true to oneself -- whatever that truth entails.

I tip my hat to you.

Jennifer 


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Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:33amSanction this postReply
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Great article Jason. It is a great championing statement of the individual and his/her nature and self-esteem.

 

It is also a very enlightening insight into the development of homosexuality in individuals and how pressure to conform to the wishes of the heterosexual majority can negatively affect them.

Bravo!


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Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 11:54amSanction this postReply
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Jason:

Excellent article, very rational, very sincere. Also very valid points about integrity and self esteem. No one should pretend to be something they are not, absolutely correct! To thine own self be true.

I first came across Rand's books when I was 20 and I found them refreshing and helpful. I think anyone, regardless of their sexuality (heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual) will find a lot of merit in the philosophy of Objectivism. Heterosexual that I am, I have never regarded someone else's sexuality as being a reason to not want to interact with them.

Keep up the good work, sir.

Ron Tobin
Philosophers Guild


Post 5

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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Jason:

Where is it written that homosexuality is natural? Even if one experiences oneself as aroused by the same sex, a fact that one certainly ought to respect rather than repress, the question remains as to the source and nature of this attraction.

I suspect that homosexuality is a psychological pathology, rather than an expression of genetics, despite the widely touted claims of studies of twins that supposedly prove a genetic basis.  I do not have a background in science, have not read extensively about these studies, and cannot point to flaws in their construction or reasoning. However, I am still very skeptical. I have read that the studies do not prove what their promoters wish to prove--a genetic cause of homosexuality--and I doubt that natural selection is consistent with the preservation of a "homosexual gene".

There are alternative explanations of homosexuality that seem more congruent with the complexity of human experience, namely childhood experience. Based on such experiences, a child may form conclusions about Mother, Dad, and himself that profoundly affect his self conceptand later his sexual experience. For example, a violent, unpredicatble, terrifying father can "imprint" on a little boy's subconscious an aching, longing, need to be loved and held and protected by father. A cold, hostile mother, or a suffocrating, neurotic mom can imprint on her son's subconscious an overpowering sense of threat, or a very potent visceral aversion, that if left unresolved will make normal sexual response to women difficult, confusing, or impossible. And of course, child molestation plays a big role in the course of the sexual develpement of children.

I fully realize that what I have written is considered modern blasphemy, but I think it is true.
I have great difficulty accepting the idea that homosexuality is normal.  I think it is a normal, understandable response to abnormal childhood experience.


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Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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Jason:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You Rock!

Glad I know you!

~Jenn


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Post 7

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 6:04pmSanction this postReply
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You hit a nerve with this one, Mark.
I suspect that homosexuality is a psychological pathology, rather than an expression of genetics, despite the widely touted claims of studies of twins that supposedly prove a genetic basis.  I do not have a background in science, have not read extensively about these studies, and cannot point to flaws in their construction or reasoning. However, I am still very skeptical. I have read that the studies do not prove what their promoters wish to prove--a genetic cause of homosexuality--and I doubt that natural selection is consistent with the preservation of a "homosexual gene".

I disagree with you completely on this one.  I definitely think there is a genetic component to homosexuality. I have two siblings over ten years apart in age and they are both gay. Homosexuality in itself is not a psychological pathology, nor is it a lifestyle choice. I'm not saying that you have to accept homosexuals into your social circle, or even think it is normal. That is your decision. In my opinion the article was spot on.


Post 8

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jason:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You Rock!

Glad I know you!

~Jenn


Post 9

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 6:20pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

Why would homosexuality be any more unnatural than, for instance, a person with a perfectly normal sex drive that chooses to live his life without having children? Are we going to psychoanalyze everyone for their individual choices in their lives or just go ahead and let them be individuals?

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Post 10

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you for (almost) everyone's "Bravo's" and well-articulated commendations.  I'm very pleased to see these reactions.

To Mark Humphreys, whom I would like to dismiss out-of-hand, but can not: I have so far disdained from dissecting point-by-point someone's post; yet in this instance I can't in good conscience leave such a post unanswered.  The following will come across as both passionate and defensive.  It is both.

You begin your post with "Where is it written....?"  First of all, this very question pre-supposes that something published must be truth - which is an obvious fallacy and ridiculous on its face.  There are those who have "written" that homosexuality is natural, both in the animal world in general and in the human one in particular.  So the very publishing of such a theory is no validation of it.  You acknowledge that one should respect rather than repress one's sexuality, even if it is "a psychological pathology" - so what is the very point of the rest of your post?  Frankly, since you do not have a background in science and have not even bothered to read those studies that have been done (only "read that the studies...."), I don't have any interest in your own pet theories.  But further than that I stated in my very article that it does not matter if one's sexuality is caused by nature or nurture.  Can you not realize that nurture means environment and external events?  Was that a point lost entirely on you?  My exact statement was in paragraph 5 and was:

"(It does not matter in this case whether homosexuality is caused by “nature or nurture” or both.  One must act within the context of the available knowledge at any given time.)"

I will be the first to say that I do not believe there is a homosexual gene.  Read the works of Stephen Pinker (a psycholinguist) who eloquently explains the fallacy in stating that there is a "gene" for anything (His particularly excellent book in which this subject was dealt with was "The Language Instinct" in which he debunks the idea that there is a "language" gene; his title comes from his theory that language is "an instinct to acquire an art").  Beyond this, however, I do not believe there is enough evidence to support whether or not homosexuality is genetic, psychological/environmental, or both. 

However, the problem with the ENTIRE "nurture/psychology/boo-hoo father was mean to me and mother was too clingy" argument is the very "complexity of human experience" (to borrow your phrase, italics mine) and the tremendous variety of actual, documented experiences of homosexuals.  Described in the first-hand and second-hand stories are every conceivable type of relationship between gay people and their parents.  For gay men in particular, it's a chicken and egg question, surely:  the very sense of being "different" early on could cause the Father to distance himself from the son or the son not to feel as if he had the same things in common with his father as other boys had with their fathers.

But the question remains, since you attributed something to my article that I never said, WHAT WAS THE POINT?  I am tempted very strongly to "psychologize" - something I make it a point to avoid.  So, I will end by simply telling you that if you are truly skeptic about the "nature" argument but are not willing to do the necessary research to resolve the doubt in your mind then shut up - without research you have no grounds to comment on it but your own experience and since that experience doesn't include homosexuality, you have no grounds to comment on it. 


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Post 11

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

It's interesting that you don't think homosexuality could possibly be genetic. In fact, I have read that there are various theories that would account for it. One has to do (very roughly speaking) with group dynamics and the likelihood of a 'gay' person enhancing the survival odds of his kin's offspring. I can't explain it any better because it's been a long time since I read about it.

Furthermore, do you imagine that the instances of homosexuality in the animal kingdom arise from a "psychological pathology" as well?

Another alternative to a pure genetic explanation I've read about has to do with the environment (hormones, etc.) that the fetus is exposed to. This could (over the 'medium' run) look like a family correlation. In any event, the jury is certainly still out, but there is no reason at all to presume "psychological pathology" as the 'best' or default explanation.

Kernon


Post 12

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent essay, Jason!

Mark Humphrey wrote:

There are alternative explanations of homosexuality that seem more congruent with the complexity of human experience, namely childhood experience. Based on such experiences, a child may form conclusions about Mother, Dad, and himself that profoundly affect his self conceptand later his sexual experience. For example, a violent, unpredicatble, terrifying father can "imprint" on a little boy's subconscious an aching, longing, need to be loved and held and protected by father. A cold, hostile mother, or a suffocrating, neurotic mom can imprint on her son's subconscious an overpowering sense of threat, or a very potent visceral aversion, that if left unresolved will make normal sexual response to women difficult, confusing, or impossible.
Mark: This is Freudian garbage! Your argument conveniently overlooks the vast number of gay people who grow up in "normal" loving family environments - that is to say, without "hostile" mothers or "unpredictable" fathers or scout leaders to corrupt them - and who still turn out to be gay. If two siblings, for example, are raised in exactly the same set of circumstances, and yet only one of them is gay, then it stands to reason that it is nature and not nurture that determines sexual orientation.


Post 13

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 7:52pmSanction this postReply
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You acknowledge that one should respect rather than repress one's sexuality, even if it is "a psychological pathology" - so what is the very point of the rest of your post?


I just want to point out that it's perfectly valid to question why homosexuality exists without condemning it as “bad.”

Post 14

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the replies to my post about the nature of homosexuality.

Jason was unfortunately offended by my ideas, which were not intended to demean, insult or criticize. Anyone who experiences homosexual desires emphatically ought to respect and explore the source and nature of that experience. Facts are facts, whether of one's inner experience or external to it. I expressed my ideas that homosexuality is a pathology, because Jason's article simply assumes (as does virtually everyone else today) that homosexuality is "natural". This question is an important one, because I am sure that many sexually confused young men believe without questioning that their emotional experience cannot be understood or altered. That is certainly the message they receive from all around them today. But I think that any emotional experience, including homosexuality, using courage and the right tools and methods, can be introspectively analyzed and (at least, partly) understood.

My view of homosexuality does not mean I want to demonize, persecute, or avoid gay people. I never raised this issue. But it is interesting and unfortunate that one cannot discuss this subject today without promptly being accused of meanness.

The argument that homosexuality could not be a pathology, because many homosexuals claim that they were not disturbed or traumatized as children, does not convince me. Repression is unfortunately far more common than psychological awareness. 

The argument that homosexuality manifests among animals is false. On cattle ranches, one can observe unbred cows riding other cows.  In fact, that is how one identifies "open" beef cows--cows that one hoped and expected were pregnant, but are not. This behavior could be described as "sexual", except that nothing happens physiologically. The behavior is superfically sexual, and doesn't happen if a bull is in the pasture.

I admit that I know little about the science of genetics, and nothing of theories that might account for a genetic explanation of homosexuality.  If it can be proven that homosexuality is not a psychological pathology, that it is an unalterable expression of the physiology of some individuals, then so be it.

However, I doubt very much that this proposition has been proven.

Jason, I certainly wish you well.


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Post 15

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
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From what my life experience has shown me, and the research that I have read from many sources, one's sexuality is determined by genetic factors. I have never yet heard anyone tell me that they actually sat down, thought about it, and then CHOSE to be heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual. So I very much support the genetic argument regarding sexuality.

Even if that were NOT so, what would the problem be? Unless you are sexually interested in a person, why do you care which sex they are attracted to? What difference does it make? I mean, does anyone here actually believe that a gay individual cannot be principled, cannot be dedicated to a rational philosophy?  I certainly hope no one here believes that, because if you do then you are very sadly mistaken.

I know Rand believed that homosexuals were somehow psychologically infirm. It was one of the issues that she was very seriously mistaken about. Let us not carry on THAT part of her legacy.

So long as we are speaking of consenting adults, I could care less what they want to do in their bedrooms, nor whom they wish to do it with.

Ron Tobin
Philosophers Guild


Post 16

Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 12:37amSanction this postReply
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A good article, Jason.

I myself don't buy the "gay gene" line because I think it assumes a hetero-homosexual binary which isn't defensible. I'm more inclined to think that sexuality is a continuum where considerable movement is *possible*. That said, such a view doesn't preclude certain environmental factors pushing one to either side of that spectrum such that further change is extremely unlikely and I think that's what happens for most people. But those environmental factors are extraordinarily complex and hardly as simple as having a dominant mother or whatever.


Post 17

Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 4:04amSanction this postReply
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Funny thing how this debate flares up once in a while, as though the previous flare-ups never happened. For all the newbies here, I draw to your attention Chris Sciabarra's monograph on the Objectivist movement's dreadful history of homophobia, that you can buy from the SOLO store here:

http://www.solohq.com/Store/Ayn_Rand,_Homosexuality,_and_Human_Liberation.shtml

Linz

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Post 18

Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 5:03amSanction this postReply
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I'm convinced that one's sexuality is genetic. The next time someone tells you that sexuality is a choice, tell them, "If you really believe that, you must be bi-sexual." Watch their jaw drop.:-)
(Edited by Bob Palin on 1/23, 5:04am)


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Post 19

Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
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Looking around the room here there are a couple of guys with their mouths hanging wide open. The resident faghag here requests that you kindly close it and check your premises. Thanks for the resource, Linz. Can someone put it on the moogul page? Maybe I can convince my brother to read the hardcover edition of Atlas Shrugged I gave him three years ago and stop using it as a doorstop.  ; )


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