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Post 20

Saturday, February 5, 2005 - 9:36pmSanction this postReply
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Matt ask me,
You stated that parents should bring up their child according to their value system. Fair enough of course, but do you think this should extend to blatantly irrational religious value systems?
It is obvious to me that the answer should be yes. Religious families do impose their faith on children from their birth. It is not against law. And most religious people are decent, benevolent people. Although you and I may think that theirs are "blatantly irrational religious value systems", they probably think worse of us godless people. At the moment, we have to co-exist with each other. So as long as the parents did not break the law, e.g. beating up their child or teaching hatred, I think they do have a right to teach their children what they think are right.

As for your"teenage reading Rand" example, let's consider another scenario: what if a teenage in an Objectivist family suddenly turns to Bible and Church, what would the parents do?


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Post 21

Saturday, February 5, 2005 - 10:38pmSanction this postReply
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I support giving children the right to vote.

1) Children's voting choices would be no less mature and thoughtful than those of many adults who vote.   It's said that newspaper articles must be written for a fourth-grade reader.  'Nuff said.

2) The Weekly Reader's Children's Poll has successfully picked the winner of every single presidential election since the poll was first introduced. 

3) Politicians would care more about children's issues, if they knew that children are watching what they say, and voting.

Children have no less a capacity for logical thought than do adults... in fact, I argue that they are much more honest and mentally straightforward than many adults, who have long ago succumbed to corrupt mind-sets.


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Post 22

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 4:40amSanction this postReply
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Hong gave the correct answer. If my kids found (and accepted as truth) religion, well that would be like a kid coming from a bible thumping family becoming a satanist. It would be devastating. It is also unlikely to happen as objectivism is based not upon blind faith, but reason. Unless the existence of god is proven, it ain't gonna happen in this household. And if it does, they still have to play by my rules as long as they are living under my roof. My home is officially a god-free, as well as a rap-free zone.

As for voting age...hmmmmm....lower the voting age for objectivists and raise it for religionists.  But, hey, that ain't gonna happen either so lets split the difference and leave it at 18, and make sure that our kids exercise their voting rights when they come of age and make educated choices. With rights come responsibility.

kathy


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Post 23

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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kat,

Oh, surely you jest. 

I mean, what about the heroic rap anthems, like "Gin and Juice"?  What about the love songs, like "Big Ole Butt"?  With "stank hoes" and "playas" abounding, this is truly a culture rich with diversity and tradition.

And don't forget about country music, either.  How could anyone ever tire of all the variations on the idea of "If it ain't conformity, we gotta destroy it"?

I beg you to reconsider.



Post 24

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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This is a difficult one. My general inclination is to say that children be allowed to explore belief systems as they see fit, without being forced in any way by their parents to accept any. That said, it could lead to children of Objectivist parents turning out religious. On the other hand the alternative means religious parents bringing up irrational people. But then if the culture is predominantly Objectivist anyway, that wouldn't be too much of an issue.

Post 25

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 4:38pmSanction this postReply
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I get the sense there are conflicting goals here. If the goal is to give children more freedom/rights, it shouldn't matter if they use that freedom to pursue the studies of Rand, the Bible or the brotherhood of the KKK.

A few of the posts I read seem to just imply that there are many bad parenting styles out there, even if they don't know it or do it intentionally. I don't think that could be corrected by increasing the rights of children. I agree with Hong that we need to understand that people have different beliefs and cultures.

If you give kids these rights, you have to think worst case, not just best case. I think there are some less than ideal things parents teach their kids, but in the end the parents need to be able to make kids eat the veggies, go to school, and get to bed on time...

-Elizabeth

Post 26

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 5:14pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, Dan, you caught me.  I allow one rap song in this house. The original rap anthem "Give Peace a Chance"  anything else is headphones only....and my daughter has been known to occasionally pick up a bible just for shits and grins or to help me figure out a crossword puzzle. 

Post 27

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne said:
If you want to fling around pointless insults, I recommend that you leave Solo and take up residence as a troll on Usenet.

I say:
Although, I have some disagreements with the points that Matt raises in this article, he is not a troll. In fact, he has pretty much been with SOLO from the beginning as a good number of people on this forum can attest. Every post that I have read of his was made with respect and thought (even when mistaken) and as he said in his article that his thoughts will probably develop further on this issue meaning he is open to changing his mind. Matt is not one to throw around insults lightly, and the fact remains that you started it anyway. Re-read post 6 in which you say, "Your feelings on Betsy Speicher are oh so useful to me, thank you so much for posting them. Do you have some more feelings you'd like to offer?" That is pretty insulting and useless for you in trying to prove your point. I would have just asked him what works of Betsy Speicher's that he read and suggested alternative works of hers or of another author. You ought to apologize for the insulting comment, especially as your first post indicates that you are intelligent and articulate with your position.

Adam

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Post 28

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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Kat,

I have a question for you:

Why is it that so many females only become actually cool, AFTER they have kids? 

If you could figure out how to extract and bottle the essence of whatever changes in a female after she has kids and SELL it to single females these days, who are out in the world flashing their tits and oinking and eating out of troughs, guys like me would be immeasurably grateful.

That's my crude attempt at a compliment to you, and your objectivity of stance on things. 


Post 29

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 10:28pmSanction this postReply
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If you want to fling around pointless insults, I recommend that you leave Solo and take up residence as a troll on Usenet.
I, too, take issue with this.  Matthew is never anything but polite on these threads, and is one of the people who particularly makes an effort to argue the issues.

Shayne, though it seems you are an intelligent person, you repeatedly resort to insulting others in your posts as a way of making your argument.  I'm not sure what created the chip on your shoulder, but I am quickly reaching threshhold with your rude treatment of others on this board.

If you can't be civil, perhaps you should be the one considering Usenet as a proper home.


Post 30

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 11:40pmSanction this postReply
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Matthew:
I've read very little of Betsy Speicher, and based on what I have read have little desire to read more.
Your feelings on Betsy Speicher are oh so useful to me, thank you so much for posting them. Do you have some more feelings you'd like to offer?

Actually, THIS is where the rudeness started... And this was Shayne's post. 

The "oh so useful" comment was in response to Matthew stating that he had little desire to read more Betsy Speicher.  I think he was entitled to state his opinion on his preference.  I think you took this as an arrogant mockery, rather than Matthew rebuking something he finds antithetical to his value system, which is every person's duty.  The only justifiable duty in life. 

So, I agree with Jennifer on this one... Shayne started this.  And yes, it always DOES matter who started things.


Post 31

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 11:42pmSanction this postReply
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you repeatedly resort to insulting others in your posts as a way of making your argument.
I never insult anyone as a way of making an argument. And I find that assessment of my previous posts to be extremely sloppy and unjust.
I'm not sure what created the chip on your shoulder ...
Thanks for the insults, but if you want to discuss your opinions on my character, I'd only entertain them offline. Such a discussion doesn't belong in this thread.
Matthew is never anything but polite on these threads, and is one of the people who particularly makes an effort to argue the issues.
This is ironic. The whole reason I chastised him was because I thought he had made an off-topic, pointless, and impolite remark. I read what others have said in his defense, I stand by my assessment of his remark.

Not that I want to get into a long discussion about it. What's more important here is his position on throwing parents in jail or some such because they don't let their teenager read Playboy (honestly I don't know if this is his position or not, it's very hard for me to tell what his actual position is).


Post 32

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 11:45pmSanction this postReply
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Jennifer,

Perhaps if I knew how Shayne was interpreting people, then that might shed some light on why he thinks that vicious sarcasm is in order.


Post 33

Sunday, February 6, 2005 - 11:48pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne,

Since you ARE employing the most vicious sarcasm, I think the least you could do, is own up to it.

Beyond that, it becomes an issue of whether or not it's warranted, which I do believe can sometimes be the case with sarcasm.

Honestly, I don't think that Matthew is trying to be deliberately dense or anything like that. 


Post 34

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 3:48amSanction this postReply
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Hmmmmmm.... it is interesting that on a thread dealing about children, there seems to be developing a 'romper room' here....

Post 35

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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Andrew, Danny, Jennifer,

Thanks to all of you for the kind words and support expressed above, though purely in the interest of truth and accuracy I would say it is something of an exaggeration to say that I have been with SOLO from the beginning as at first I read the contributions without actually contributing for several months.  For the record, I was happy to regard Shayne's initial insults as the result of a misunderstanding, and I am very sorry to see that he has continued to respond in the manner that he has when I have explained what I meant.

Hong, Elizabeth, Kat,

I guess you are correct that parents should be able to introduce their kids to whatever philosophy they see fit. Perhaps in a largely Objectivist society children will take O'ist principles on board before other philosophies can do too much damage :-)

MH


Post 36

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Robert.
 For the record, I was happy to regard Shayne's initial insults as the result of a misunderstanding, and I am very sorry to see that he has continued to respond in the manner that he has when I have explained what I meant.

Precisely what "manner" are you referring to? Or do you simply mean that I didn't buy your explanation? To that I only said one word: "Right", meaning, "I don't agree, but this isn't important enough to argue about." Then I dropped it, because I didn't want to see this turn into the "romper room" that you and a few others have turned it into.

And particularly since you're the Solo Law Leader, I think you should be coming out with a clear principle on when you're going to throw parents in jail when they interfere with what you deem are the kid's rights (or fine them or whatever, which amounts to the same thing). It's interesting what really matters to some people around here. You come out with an article that sounds like hard-core statism in child rearing and it's all "he's so polite and nice, how dare you insult him." I figured I was holding back given the direction you're headed in.


Post 37

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 11:37amSanction this postReply
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Shayne,

I was referring more generally to your persistent habit of insulting everyone who disagrees with you rather than your refusal to accept my explanation (though being an honest chap, I did find the implication of that comment rather insulting).

As for the rest, I suspect everyone else grasps that my article was intended as a primer for a constructive debate (i.e. brainstorming), and probably understand the difference between that and advocating a definite position. I also wouldn't be surprised if a few of them are as confused as I am by your notion that discussing how and to what extent rights-theory ought to apply to children is "statist".
Now like I said, I was hoping my article would give rise to a constructive debate. So unless you have anything else constructive to say, goodbye. I'm done responding to your nonsense.

MH


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Post 38

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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I was referring more generally to your persistent habit of insulting everyone who disagrees with you rather than your refusal to accept my explanation (though being an honest chap, I did find the implication of that comment rather insulting).
No one enjoys being insulted. But for one who is so touchy about it, you sure do dish it out with ease. I certainly do not insult everyone who disagrees with me, rather one has to indulge in some miminal amount of foolishness first, though I can see why you would like it to seem otherwise.
As for the rest, I suspect everyone else grasps that my article was intended as a primer for a constructive debate (i.e. brainstorming), and probably understand the difference between that and advocating a definite position. I also wouldn't be surprised if a few of them are as confused as I am by your notion that discussing how and to what extent rights-theory ought to apply to children is "statist".
I am starting to wonder what definite positions you have, if any. But quoting from your original article:
There ought in effect to be a large (though limited) “sphere of freedom” – actions which a teen is able to do without the assistance of his parents and which the parents wouldn’t be able to interfere with. For instance parents ought not to be able forcibly restrict a teen’s access to information and entertainment where the teen has the means and the wherewithal to obtain such material.
Since you are talking about rights, this can only mean one thing: if a parent takes away the kid's Playboy (something you characterized as "stealing"), the kid can legally punish the parent.
Now like I said, I was hoping my article would give rise to a constructive debate. So unless you have anything else constructive to say, goodbye. I'm done responding to your nonsense.
Actually the only thing you've chosen to respond to is the nonsense. The irony runs thick in this thread: I was the one trying to shift us back to a discussion of the topic you raised. You and your defenders prefer to talk about how polite you are and how rude I am.


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Post 39

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 5:30pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Matthew! Thanks for beginning this discussion. I also believe that the status of children is something that is largely ignored by the Objectivist community in general. It's a timely and important topic for me because I have kids (well, one and one on the way).

Most of what I've been thinking about has already been said, but I wanted to make a couple of points. Concerning the rights of children, my take on it is this (and may be revised as I think through it more and discuss with others): the rights of children are held in trust by the parents. Parents accept this responsibility as part of having children. As children progress from completely dependent nonrational beings to progressively more independent, more rational children, teenagers, young adults, etc., a rational, responsible parent gradually "lets go" of the child's responsibilities, allowing the child to own more of the consequences (good and bad) of his actions.

An example might be managing money. A very small child has no concern for money--can't earn it, spend it, conduct business with it. An older child might put together a lemonade stand type of business or do extra work around the house in order to save money for something they desire. A teenager may hold a job. I think it's reasonable for a parent to make the vast majority (or all) of a child's purchasing/saving decisions when the child is very small. As the child gets older and learns more about money, earning it, buying stuff, etc., the parent need not and should not make those spending/saving decisions for the child. Obviously, there can be no hard and fast rule as to how this is handled. Ideally, the parents and child will work out something that is mutually beneficial.

The second thing I'd like to comment on is the concern that a child raised by Objectivists might embrace the bible one day (and vice versa). The most parents can do is raise their children to understand how to think critically, to understand the consequences of their actions. Children are not always going to make choices that we agree with. But those choices are their own, and parents should be willing to allow the children to experience the consequences of those choices. This is where I see the "house rules" idea come into play. If my kids want to be religious, I will be disappointed, disagree with it, hate it. I also know that the consequences of them failing to exercise their rational faculties will catch up to them eventually. I will have to be able to let it go, to a certain extent, assuming there is still something of our relationship that I wish to hold on to. And this is where they will need to respect my desires, too. For example, I don't and won't say grace before a meal in my house. If my kids want to eat dinner, especially if I'm providing it, then they will need to respect that house rule. (The same goes for rap music! I'm thinking that if it is absolutely necessary for them to listen to it, they can do it out of earshot of me!)

This is my first stab at trying to articulate my thoughts on this topic which is so much of interest to me. I welcome your ideas and thoughts.

~Jenn

(By the way, I also found some of the comments regarding parenthood as some sort of altruistic, self-sacrificial state of existence to be funny, naive, and dead wrong. Since nobody has commented on this issue, at least in this thread, I just wanted to state my thoughts for the record. But that's for another post--maybe an article.)

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