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Post 0

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
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Good summary of my thoughts about Ayn Rand's ideas of Kant. Since I am German, I have read Kant, I can't agree with her at all. I also read Rawls, but I have to say that Any Rand has a right to be critical of him.
Rawls tried to make egalitarianism more subtle and tried to bind freedom and government control more closely.
But I'd never try to get Kant and Rawls on the same level, because Kant (although he CAN be misread and in this I think Ayn Rand was right) is way better and more focused in his ideas than Rawls.
His Theory of Justice is intriguing, but especially the veil of Ignorance as a basis of assumptions is a thing to be taken as a premise and as such it is not explained detailed enough.
I think the best application of Rawls ideas can be seen in Europe, where well-fare states use his definition of the ultimate "Justice".
Perhaps I will write more on Rawls error in premises later, when I have more time to write a synopsis :)


Post 1

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 10:42amSanction this postReply
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Is it really true that Rand never read Kant, not even his brief work on ethics (the name of which escapes me for now), not even excerpts of his books?

Post 2

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
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Well, even if she has read them, this doesn't give her the necessary credibility to judge his whole work, but rather only his ethics (which are already doubted by some).
So, this the problem, did she read no-Kant or only some excerpts. Either way, it is a point that needs more analysis.


Post 3

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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If Rand chose not to spend a great deal of time reading this drivel it is because she had more important things to do. Rawls premise is altruistic proposing the enslavemt of industrious rational men for the benefit of ne'er do wells. He is the author of such stupid ideas as the negative rights, e.g. universal health care (although he doen't mention it specifically). Which slave is to provide it? Anyone defending Rawls is a socialist and probably a Christian.

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Post 4

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with the post above. No self-respecting person, let alone Ayn Rand, would waste a second of his life on drivel once he had divined it was drivel. I'm sure that by one means or another Rand got to the essence of Kant without having to wade through the crapulous Critique or anything else by the Catastrophic Spider. Subjecting oneself to the whole kit & caboodle is fit only for schizophrenics & academics.

As for Rawls, what precisely was Rand supposed to have got wrong about him? His vile theory of "justice" - based on an acknowledged fiction - is indeed the foundation of so much of the egalitarian filth that pervades modern-day laws & institutions, especially academic institutions, where evidence of its corruptness can be seen even here. Rawls was a maggot. Rand was wrong only in that she went too easy on him.

Fred, of course, is a Christian & a socialist ... but one should remember that Christ & Marx were pre-Randian Objectivists.


Linz


(Edited by Lindsay Perigo on 2/26, 1:11pm)


Post 5

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
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I unfortunately had to expose myself to a distressing amount of Rawls a couple of years back for a university class on Political Theory. Thankfully the module assessment was essay-based and one of the available questions was something along the lines of classical liberalism/libertarianism's influence on the so-called New Right - which I turned into an excuse to cite Rand a very large number of times :-)

As for Rawls himself, I'm inclined to think Rand was more or less accurate in her assessment, though it doesn't seem very Objectivist to me to "review" a book one hasn't read at all :-\

MH


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Post 6

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Kant’s epistemology is easily refuted and Ayn Rand devoted the full amount of space to the task that it requires.

 

PS: By “refute Kant’s epistemology” I do not mean “convince Kant scholars or others that he was wrong” but “see that Kant was wrong and explain it well.” That is the difference between second-handedness and individualism in thought. (Yes, I have read and studied Kant.)

 


Post 7

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

By “refute Kant’s epistemology” I do not mean “convince Kant scholars or others that he was wrong” but “see that Kant was wrong and explain it well.” That is the difference between second-handedness and individualism in thought.
That is an excellent point, and I now realise that the principle, as it applies to an entirely separate and unrelated context, is one I have rather failed to fully embrace.

Thank you :-)

MH


Post 8

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks! I nevertheless continue to believe that even profound intellectual opponents can be swayed if one is able and willing to go deep enough--to address the basic point on which their error depends. Assuming their views are intellectually based and not some sort of rationalization.

 

But there is seldom time for such delving. Nor is it necessary. The key is to reach the young and bypass all the nonsense. Rand’s appearance at this point in history bodes well for mankind.


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Post 9

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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This is amongst Fred's worst contributions I've seen, and there have been many here at SOLO which have plumbed the depths.

Fred uses a review of Rand's treatment of Rawls to once again continue his obsession with Kant, while failing to discuss what Rand actually said about Rawls, or even what Maggot Rawls said himself. Bizarre. Frankly, who cares how Nozick "access"ed (sic) Rawls' ideas? Perhaps Fred is just getting carried away with the glow of trashing Rand once again.

And further: if one offers endless definitions of non-concepts, anti-concepts, pseudo-concepts and dichotomies then one is not a 'definition-mongererer' at all - to offer so many definitions of nothing at all at in the length and prolixity that Kant did one is either an asshole, an idiot, or a man with a plan.

As Rand rightly assesses, he was the latter, and possibly also the former.

She got Kant right; she got Rawls right; and she didn't waste her life writing footnotes or producing ibid thickets about them to do so. Good for her - and for us!

And if what Fred offers here and elsewhere is an example of the good scholarship he claims to value and to represent, then why one would value such a thing (or such a 'scholar') is beyond me.

(Edited by Peter Cresswell on 2/26, 3:08pm)

(Edited by Peter Cresswell on 2/26, 4:17pm)


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Post 10

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 6:26pmSanction this postReply
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I agree that Rand's academic scholarship was one of her weakest attributes. I remember that essay of hers on Rawls coming out in The Ayn Rand Letter, which I read in the 70's right when I was just starting to read a lot of Objectivist writing. I remember feeling very uneasy about someone of her stature addressing issues of such importance, with a specific philosopher named, and writing a critique of him based on another critique of him and almost bragging that she would not read the original manuscript. I would have flunked my classes in college back then for doing something like that. It was also not one of her best moments when she offered a book that she had not read as evidence in that special dramatic rhetorical manner she used for making her points (a manner that I admire, by the way).

But I also agree that wading through Kant and Rawls are activities for the masochistic at heart, and especially in Kant's case, people who like to engage their mental capacities in far-out ways like playing mental chess or memorizing telephone books.

The truth is that if she had her mind set on singling out those particular men as primary sources of intellectual evil instead of, say, certain religious doctrines, which to my mind have wreaked much more havoc on the history of humankind (such as war, for example), then a little more first-hand - not second-hand - familiarity with their works had to be in order.

There is no way to get around it. If you are going to throw intellectual stones and expect to be taken seriously from an intellectual - not propaganda - standpoint, you have to have first-hand knowledge of your target. But I suppose you can get away with second-hand knowledge when you preach to the converted.

This in no way diminishes her stature as an original thinker, however. I know of no genius who did not have some weaker attributes.

Definition-wise, I have a small matter of something I did not understand in Fred's post. It is the expression "overload our crow". It is easy to get the gist from the context and it sounds pretty cool. But in the end, why crow? Metaphorical mental crowbar? Breaking the back of a bird (or Indian) of burden? I hope this is not about Sheryl Crow. (Sorry, I couldn't resist...)

There was another word I was not familiar with: screed. Ayn Rand wrote screeds? What the hell is that? So I looked it up. According to the American Heritage Dictionary - Second College Edition, it is: "1. A long, monotonous harangue or piece of writing."

I have read everything Rand published that I could get my hands on. She could harangue at times all right. But monotonous? Ayn Rand?

Sorry. Can't buy it.

Fred, my man, it sounds real learned (albeit a bit highfalutin) but another word is in order. Especially in the context of discussing those masters of literary style and excitement, Kant and Rawls.

Michael



Post 11

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry guys, but I agree that this highlights, in a truly ridiculous way, Rand's greatest scholarly weakness -- her refusal to read. I mean, come on. A "review of a review"??!! Of a freakin' 200 page book??!!!!???!!

That "review of a review" is a self-parody of the highest order. It is truly laughable, a low-point in Rand's career, and I don't see how anyone can condone it. It was another sad example of her hermit-like disengagement from the world in her later years.

Just think of the nonexistent tape the world could have seen, of the debate Rand could have had, in which she would have minced that miscreant Rawls, sizzled him up and served him on a platter for us all to eat.

Alec


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Post 12

Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 7:18pmSanction this postReply
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There seems to be one point that is being overlooked in this discussion.  It doesn't really matter much how much of Kant's (or Rawls', which was how this thread got started) work Rand actually read.  One doesn't have to read Newton's Principia to be knowledgeable about classical mechanics.
 
What matters is whether or not she was correct and had good reasons to believe what she asserted.
 
There are many ways to obtain the latter in order to arrive at the former.  There is evidence that not only did she read Kant in the original German, but that she read commentators. (Branden's comment, even if taken at face value, is beside the point.  By the time he met her she was already far old enough to have read all of Kant's work and then some and have had years to think about it.)
 
And, again using the Physics analogy, it isn't necessary to master every nuance of Newtonian mechanics (something that physicists are still doing, by the way) to grasp whether the basic principles are correct and ascertain to what consequences they will lead in everyday life.
 
This ought to be enough for any reasonable assessment of at least the main points.  There is, after all, a very large consensus on what Kantianism is even among those who disagree about it's implications or worth.
 
If Prof. Sneddon has, as he sometimes seems to suggest, a radically different interpretation of Kantianism (or Rawlsianism), he has a very heavy burden of proof, indeed.
 
 
 


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Post 13

Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 1:01amSanction this postReply
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It also seems to escape the attention of folk who are appalled that Rand would damn someone without actually reading him (which is not to say that she wasn't well-informed about him) that she really wouldn't have cared less about academics saying she was a lousy academic. I'm sure she would have treated that "criticism" as a compliment, given the intellectual travesty that the term "academic" has become. It is debased currency, whose dealers are overwhelmingly poseurs & charlatans.

There's only one question here that counts–was Rand right about Kant & Rawls or was she wrong?

As Malcolm Muggeridge used to say, "Ask me another."

Linz

Post 14

Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 2:27amSanction this postReply
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Personally I'm not "appalled" that Rand criticised Rawls without reading his book, nor do I doubt that she was right - because I myself read enough of Rawls to know it. Had I relied purely on the statements of my Political Theory lecturers the result might have been rather different. So basically although Rand got it right in this instance, as a general rule I'm just not sure it's good practice to judge any body of work purely on the basis of a third party's views.

MH


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Post 15

Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 2:47amSanction this postReply
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Lindsay said:
There's only one question here that counts–was Rand right about Kant & Rawls or was she wrong?
No, that is not the only question here. Rand could have been right about collectivism without writing The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged and VOS; without thoroughly demonstrating its flaws and evil; without inspiring millions to repudiate it; without helping to bring about its world-wide drawback. She could have been just as right about it without having been Ayn Rand.

The question that counts almost as much is the intellectual quality of her work. It is the intellectual quality and persuasiveness of her other works that seperates them from all the others that advocated individualism (and collectivism); it is the lack of that quality that prevents her writing about Kant and Rawls from being taken seriously. That she didn't care what academics thought is absolutely no excuse. Many people being bad does not provide one with justification for being just as bad. You can't merely invoke the soiled name of academe to abdicate all your intellectual responsibilites.

Do you think the only question regarding academics is whether they are wrong about Ayn Rand -- or also whether they present and engage her ideas fairly and honestly? I for one think the second question is far more important than the first. Think of what a better, healthier, smarter world it would be if the answer was "yes" to the second question regarding academics who disagree with her. If it ought to be demanded of academics, concerning Rand, then it should be demanded of Rand, concerning Kant and Rawls. Alas, she did not meet that proper demand when discussing Kant and Rawls, and was much less convincing and much more immune to criticism because of it.

Alec   


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Post 16

Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 5:01amSanction this postReply
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What presumptuous poppycock. Rand spoke her mind when she thought she had enough to go on. That'll do me. I couldn't care less if it doesn't satisfy a bunch of pomo wankers in academia. I can think of no greater torture to impose on any less deserving person than to insist she read the whole kit & caboodle. She had way better things to do, & it's simply vicious to fault her for not burying her head in crap. She did not pretend to be a scholar who waded through everything & addended copious footnotes, references, cross-references & all the rest. She was a polemicist who, once she had grasped the essence of something vile, sallied forth mightily against it. Contrary to the claim that her polemic against Kant would have been more powerful had she satisfied pseudo-scholastic criteria, her case would have been considerably weakened, if only because of the clutter of pseudo-scholarly paraphernalia that a reader would have had to negotiate. But mainly because of the weasel-words in which she would have had to couch her case.

Ugh!

The comforting thing is that at the time of her bicentenary, in another 100 years, she'll be huge, & her piss-ass critics from academia won't even rate one of their own precious footnotes! Oh joy! :-)

Linz



Post 17

Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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I certainly agree that modern scholarship can get out of control, with excessive footnotes and the like.

But at the same time, the give and take found in much scholarship is useful.  If someone writes a book on philosophy, I hope that person develops his views, anticipates counterarguments, interacts with contary opinions and the like.  That's how people learn (and how they become convinced).

To a large extent, Rand didn't do that.  And, more importantly, her true believing followers (ARIans) don't do that.  This is one reason that her ideas don't get taken seriously.

As an example, von Mises is ignored to a certain extent, but imagine if he developed his ideas using Rand's style.  He would be completely ignored.


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Post 18

Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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Fred, do you honestly believe that Rand didn't read Kant? I'm of the opinion that at the very least Rand read enough to identify Kant's epistemological theory and his duty-based ethics. She then said, "That ain't right!" and put those miserable books away. Miserable to her anyway, and I understand why.

As for Rawls, those who are attacking Rand on this are missing the context of her essay. It's in Philosophy: Who Needs It? in the essay An Untitled Letter. She's attacking an idea and is addressing the reviewer (Marshall Cohen) just as much as she is addressing Rawls. She is careful to put the emphasis on the idea. Rand writes:

Let me say that I have not read and do not intend to read that book. But since one cannot judge a book by its reviews please regard the following discussion as the review of a review. Mr. Cohen's remarks deserve attention in their own right.

Fred, you didn't regard her discussion as a review of a review.


Post 19

Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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Michael Kelly wrote:

>>Definition-wise, I have a small matter of something I did not understand in Fred's post. It is the expression "overload our crow". It is easy to get the gist from the context and it sounds pretty cool. But in the end, why crow? Metaphorical mental crowbar? Breaking the back of a bird (or Indian) of burden? I hope this is not about Sheryl Crow. (Sorry, I couldn't resist...)

I believe he meant craw, the crop of a bird or insect.

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