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Post 80

Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
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Michael wrote:
>The trap is the following logical extension of her procedure and implicit message:
*You don't have to do the donkey work to be an expert on anything*

...and *everything! Magnificent. Yes of course - as every branch of human knowledge is just a subset of philosophy, once you have the right philosophy, you get to rule in every discipline. Even if you are an utter know-nothing in science, economics, history - why, you can still snort righteous contempt at the greatest expert in their field, without ever needing to explain yourself or even demonstrate you understand what they are saying!

Trouble is...well, you know what they say about absolute power.... Well done, Michael. Post of The Year.

- Daniel

Post 81

Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 7:12pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D.

I don't know if you were addressing me with your quote: "A man can not be reasoned out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."

But I almost fell out of my chair laughing, it is fantastic. Did you write it or who did? Brilliant.

Michael



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Post 82

Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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Kelly wrote: "Linz - I am still going over the older posts here on SOLO about Kant as our gracious bon vivant has suggested, so this is a little premature. (I also want to check out your Rouseau thing.)

There is a trap hidden in the middle of this whole discussion that I fell into years ago and had to climb out of - and it was a long climb. I can see it in some of the postings on this thread.

There is a tremendous temptation to let Ayn Rand do your thinking for you (you general, not you Linz), especially because she seems like - and actually is - an incredible shortcut to understanding complicated issues."

Hi Michael,

Hahaha, I have been called an ascetic sensualist but never a good one! I am honored. I enjoyed your very thoughtful post. And your right Rand can weave an overpowering web. There seems to me to be three kinds of Randies: those who follow her; those who did and now rebel; and those who simply learned and were inspired by her.

 

Regarding Kant there are a few intellectuals that took Rand’s warnings/rantings about him and investigated themselves. Two good friends and colleagues, architect Peter Cresswell and philosopher Stephen Hicks are well versed in Kant. Especially rewarding is Stephen Hicks’ Explaining Postmodernism. Tibor Machan, Philosopher, had some calm and astute criticisms on Seddon’s perspectives.

 

I have dissected Kant’s Critique of Judgement, which is his treatise on aesthetics. Must have read it over 200 times over a 20 year period. Actually I enjoyed reading it. As an artist I grew up with a postmodern art education in Los Angeles…I could grasp and execute postmodern works for my teachers; I understood the ends they were after but I could not understand the why or the roots of their aesthetics. Rand pointed me in Kant’s direction and I followed up. The exciting part about reading Kant’s aesthetics was that I could conceptually see the bridges between the works of Duchamp and Christo and Kant’s concepts of the Sublime. When you get it Christo, the ultimate nihilist, fits like a glove to Kant’s hand. BTW, quoting Kant is an absolute bitch because he stretches thoughts out, rambles, stretches some more…I am sure he did that on purpose. After all he is not going to say: “Here is some poison, take it like a good little student.”

 

I concur with Rand’s estimate that Kant is the most evil man ever, or at least from my perspective from a profound love of art. Kant’s aesthetic was what made postmodernism possible and its disgusting celebration of the negative, nihilism, and societal victimization. Many soloists know this but I am working on the book with Stephen Hicks, Explaining Postmodern Art.

 

I don’t really recommend reading Kant but he has a very interesting trick up his sleeve that catches a lot of people off guard: in his aesthetics he writes at length about his concepts of Beauty. Essentially a classic view of art: themes, communication through the senses, means and ends, etc. but he does this to show he is well versed in what art is about then precedes to treat it as inferior to his grand concept of the sublime as formless and negative. Kant’s aesthetic is The Emperor’s New Clothes on a monumental philosophical and cultural scale.


Post 83

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 12:21amSanction this postReply
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For all of my viciousness, inordinate presumptuousness, plain stupidity, intellectual snobbery, and incredible mysticism, neither I nor anyone on my side has ever said that the issue is "how much Kant and Rand did or did not read," or the fact that she didn't read everything. Nor have I proposed that "a person should be judged by the length of their qualifications." Nor anything even close.

Perhaps if you guys ease up on the adjectives a bit, you might deal with the argument as it is, and stop erecting false straw alternatives.

Alas, it seems that the wobbly bellies of the bellicose can only be flattened by a hearty punch, to be delivered at Newport Beach.

Alec  


Post 84

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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Alec (#15)

"It is the intellectual quality and persuasiveness of her other works that seperates them from all the others...If it ought to be demanded of academics, concerning Rand, then it should be demanded of Rand, concerning Kant and Rawls."

Alec (#51),

"That means reading a book you wish to review and presenting its ideas fairly--not just predicting them based on what you perceive to be the premise."

Alec (#83),

"...neither I nor anyone on my side has ever said that the issue is "how much Kant and Rand did or did not read", or the fact that she didn't read everything. Nor have I proposed that "a person should be judged by the length of their qualifications." Nor anything even close."

.....................................................

No wonder you have resorted to belly punches - because you don't seem to know what your argument is anymore.


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Post 85

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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Michael S. K.

"Rand got Kant wrong on the definition thing.
Anybody listening? That came from one who reads both.
Refutations anybody?"

Thank you Michael. Just let me reiterate--is anyone going to deal with the main issue that I raised in the article? If you think there are no definitions in the CPR, show me. Refute me. And please remember to keep Rand's words in mind. She said "all of it resting on a zero: the absence of definitions." She did not talk about evil definitions, lousy definitions, definitions by non-essentials--she said "absence of definitions."

Fred
President of those individuals united for keeping the context.



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Post 86

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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After this last post by Fred on staying in context, I am afraid I have to step outside to say a few words to a friendly soul who popped up and caught my fancy. Sorry Fred. Let me state though that I stand by what I wrote. I am no authority on Kant but I can read. You made a very simple observation about definitions. Not rocket science as far as I can see. In over 80 posts, not one poster really dealt with this issue. In fact it has been the big non-issue (the infamous "blank-out") in this thread. Looks like you're getting a bum rap to me.

Daniel Barnes - That was one hell of a compliment. Thank you.

Robert D - I did like your quote.

Namesake and bon vivant:

You wrote:

"...he has a very interesting trick up his sleeve that catches a lot of people off guard: in his aesthetics he writes at length about his concepts of Beauty. Essentially a classic view of art: themes, communication through the senses, means and ends, etc. but he does this to show he is well versed in what art is about then precedes to treat it as inferior to his grand concept of the sublime as formless and negative."

This is one of those type of splendid shortcuts to understanding a difficult work (COJ) that I said Ayn Rand does. Thank you.

Ironically, I can sympathise with your difficulty in trying to quote Kant. I worked for a while in translating in Brazil (Portuguese-English). Whenever I came across anything that had a German taint to it, I would also find what I call a "hotdog" type of expression. Instead of making short clear phrases, there was always a blop of meaning connected by a comma or preposition to another blop of meaning connected to another blop of meaning and so on, apparently until the writer had to come up for air. Germans even construct the most astonishingly long words that way.

You should see what happens to an article originally written in English, then translated into German, then translated into Portuguese from the German. On several occasions I have been hired to translate these masterpieces from the Portuguese back into English and - if you do it literally and can find the original article to compare it against - the results are hilarious. The original English "on-off button" for a computer server will become something like "the device for initializing the system for initializing the operational implementation of the operating system." It seems that Germans just think that way. Epistemological hotdogs.

One of your "Pandora's box" articles (No. 2) came up on the random articles here - so I read it. It made me remember an amusing event from my past. Attempts at finding gigantic new media (which you call "absence") is not limited to the plastic arts. When I was studying music at Boston University in the 70's, somebody came up with the hairbrained idea of using the church bells of all the churches in the city to be triggered one after the other in dodecaphonic compositions (whenever there were chromatic bells available - whenever not, very sadly, tonal compositions were used). The climax was to be all the city's churches merrily chiming out these enlightening inspirations at the same time, thus elevating the sensibilities of Boston's deserving population while it was engaged in the day-to-day grind of work and living. They scheduled this for rush hour to ensure a captive audience and even got permits from the local government agencies. Lots of media coverage. The end result was that the traffic noise got in the way. You could only hear any one church's bells if you were within a few blocks to it. And when a dodecaphonic composition was played (and heard), the overtones from the bells simply globbed together the sound into an incoherent mass where nothing could be discerned. This grandiose enterprise was not even booed - it was simply not perceived (not even "felt") by a captive audience. Total flop.

Two of my "ex's" in Brazil are painters, one of them an abstract painter. Don't even ask. But there are a few comments I want to make to you about the effect that certain types of abstract art have on provoking a sort of mental wandering - sort of like the effect of Rorschach blots. I don't feel that it is fair to abuse Fred's hospitality for this, though.

Michael

By the way - I lived in the city of São Paulo in Brazil, a long ways off from the Amazon. Sorry, no waterfronts on stilts. Just an overlarge city with over 18 million people in it. Skyscrapers. Smog. Traffic jams. The works. To have an idea of that particular madness, there are more people in the city of São Paulo than there are in the whole country of Portugal.

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 3/03, 11:28am)


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Post 87

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 11:44amSanction this postReply
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Marcus - good on you for taking the trouble to go back & chart those contradictions. I've lost a hell of a lot of respect for that poster as a result of this thread.

As for the bleating by other Groupies of Academe that no one responded to Fred on definitions, I can only assume that all their pomo wanking has made them go blind just as Granny warned. Here's Mr. Cresswell, Post 9:

"And further: if one offers endless definitions of non-concepts, anti-concepts, pseudo-concepts and dichotomies then one is not a 'definition-mongererer' at all - to offer so many definitions of nothing at all at in the length and prolixity that Kant did one is either an asshole, an idiot, or a man with a plan."

If one wishes, like the poster above, to talk about blank-outs, the most conspicuous blank-out here has been the failure of the Groupies to explain where Rand got Rawls wrong, as per my own first post:

"As for Rawls, what precisely was Rand supposed to have got wrong about him? His vile theory of 'justice' - based on an acknowledged fiction - is indeed the foundation of so much of the egalitarian filth that pervades modern-day laws & institutions, especially academic institutions, where evidence of its corruptness can be seen even here. Rawls was a maggot. Rand was wrong only in that she went too easy on him."

Well, Groupies?

Linz





Post 88

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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Linz,

"'if one offers endless definitions of non-concepts, anti-concepts, pseudo-concepts and dichotomies '"

This is your quotation from Peter's Post #9. Notice how both of you evade the context. Rand did not say Kant offered "endless definitions of non-concepts, anti-concepts, pseudo-concepts and dichotomies" she said he offered NO DEFINITIONS. Rand prided herself on being precise. She struggled for hours over getting just the right word for the concept she was trying to convey. If she had meant what Peter wrote, she would have said that. She didn't. She said what she said and I was directly my fire at what she said, not what Peter and you would have liked her to say.
So back to square one. Will anyone dare to claim there are No definitions (sans qualification ala Rand) in CPR? She did. Who will stand beside her?

Fred
President of the definition mongerer society.



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Post 89

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
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Alec writes:
>Perhaps if you guys ease up on the adjectives a bit, you might deal with the argument as it is, and stop erecting false straw alternatives.

Alec, I sympathise. This whole argument is like stepping through The Looking Glass. Suddenly, if you demand the bare minimum intellectual standards - y'know, like actually *reading* the work of someone you condemn, whether it be Kant, Rawls or whoever - you're a "groupie" (that is, someone who buys into a cult of personality ) and an "intellectual snob" playing "academic parlour games"!

However if you don't demand *any* such standards - in fact, you trash them - and just swooningly regurgitate the high-octane rhetoric of the personality in question - and what could be *less* rigorous than a review of a review? - why, you're not a "groupie" at all, but objectively grasping the essentials of an argument!

While I certainly admire the Wildean insouciance of "reviewing a review" it's looking like less of a single, glittering, upside-down trick shot and more like a whole upside-down modus operandi.

- Daniel

(Edited by Daniel Barnes
on 3/03, 4:25pm)


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Post 90

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
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1) Definition: "A definition is a statement that identifies the nature of the units subsumed under a concept." [Rand, ITOE, 52.]

Note that in order to form a concept one must have units: "A concept is a mental integration of two or more units which are isolated by a process of abstraction and united by a specific definition." [Rand , 'Psych-Epistemology of Art,' RM, 19; pb17].

In order to be a unit, of course, a thing must actually exist: "A unit is an existent regarded as a separate member of a group of two or more similar members."

And if one does try to form concepts or to make definitions of things which don't exist - such as of imaginary mental units called Categories [Can't, A79/B105] - or to make distinctions that aren't valid - such as the distinction between analytic and synthetic [Cunt, CPR, A6/B10]- ...... why, then one is talking empty nonsense, and one's name is Immanuel Kant. Or Fred Seddon. The Rand-Trasher.

2) As I said much earlier on this thread: "Fred uses a review of Rand's treatment of Rawls to once again continue his obsession with Kant, while failing to discuss what Rand actually said about Rawls, or even what Maggot Rawls said himself. Bizarre." It still is.

As this was ostensibly an article about Rand's treatment of Rawls,  has Doctor Seddon yet told anyone whether or not he agrees or disagrees with her treatment of Rawls, or whether or not she got him right or wrong? Or has he, like his hero Kant, talked up a storm and as usual said very little, and that with a sneer.

3) A criticism is often made of Great-Uncle Aristotle that he should have done more, or done differently, or done better. Yet Aristotle single-handedly invented  two sciences and set many others off on the proper footing, which is surely enough for any one man in any one lifetime - to demand that he have done more is surely gilding the lily.

This criticism seems to drop the context of what it is to be a genius - something assuredly with which none of us is challenged, or even of which most of us have much experience. Geniuses (genii?) see more clearly, in more depth, and with more precision than any of us manage possibly ever in our lives. It was often said that Rand herself had a 'mountain-top' perspective in that she could hear the basic principles of a profession or science, ask a few pertinent questions, and almost immediately leap to the many implications of those principles.

We are all the beneficiaries of her amazing mind, and of the lightning-like formation of her conclusions. To complain, as so many here have done, that in delivering her conclusions she didn't do so in a way similar to or in a way acceptable to posturing academic posuers with an axe to grind is, frankly, just dumb. To have thought, written and formulated a whole integrated philosophy (as she did) and to have introduced many of that philosophy's many earth-shattering implications as Rand did is surely enough for one woman in one lifetime - even standing on Aristotle's shoulders as she was doing; to demand that she have done more or that she should have done it differently is surely to be asking for the lily to be well and truly gilded, if not something much worse. It's not just seeking to gild the lily, it's looking to shred, grind up and dispose of the lily altogether.

I expect Rand would have understood that she was in many cases in much of her writing simply opening up new paths of exploration for those of her followers her chose to follow her; fruitful new paths that only an integrated reality-based philosophy would open up. Her shoulders were open for any thinker to follow her into any field and to cross the i's and dot the t's and produce the ibid thickets in fields for which she had helpfully opened the gate and said 'Follow me! And then head for that far horizon!' She did for instance choose to call ITO an introduction to Objectivist epistemology, since as she suggested her contribution was just that. Her expectation was no doubt that philosophers of integrity would follow her and make manifest what she had merely suggested.

Philosophers of integrity - what a fucking, oxymoronic joke. How many have their eyes on the horizons she pointed out? And how many have their eyes instead on the contents of her garbage can, and refuse to even contemplate the stars she set fire to.

Ask yourself this question: How many of her followers in a position to do so have not just signally failed to follow up most of her leads, but have instead spent too much time trashing what she did achieve and complaining that she should have done it differently, instead of getting on and doing it themselves with the lead she gave them. To answer the question is to realise why Objectivism is where it is: spending too much time in clever-dick hair-splitting one-upmanship on the one hand, and on the other hand debating the merits or not of a failed affair between four people who might well have known better but chose to try it out anyway, and who paid the consequences. 

The whole situation is just heart-breakingly sickening. For those few heroic individuals like Tibor - who has been doing the follow-up work in the gardens she and Aristotle first planted - my thanks.  The rest of you know who you are. In the latest 'Free Radical' Tibor suggests presciently that:

After all these years of too much distracting gossip about Ayn Rand, it is time to stop it and have everyone get to the meat of her philosophy. It doesn’t matter how angry she tended to be at times, how she blew up at folks, how many people she slept with, how often she gave in to the temptation to make her own idiosyncratic tastes the stuff of universally great art. OK, Rand was, contrary to her own self-delusions, not perfect.

It doesn’t matter. What matters is whether what she thought about various philosophical topics is true, as true as possible in philosophy. ...

Which is why I for one am heartily sick and tired of getting nothing but Rand-trashing and Kantian nonsense from one who claims to subscribe to Objectivism - who claims to value what she got right - but who as I see it has not done one whit to do the follow-up work Objectivism requires; and who instead spends too much of his time (and ours) in clever-dick smart-arse bleating about what he claims she got wrong; one, that is, who looks increasingly like just another blowhard, academic, po-mo wanker.

Salvos, my arse. Salve. For an arse that needs kicking.

=======================================================================
There, I've said more than I wanted, and now I'm off for the weekend. Enjoy your trashing while I'm away.



Post 91

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 5:49pmSanction this postReply
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Peter!

What a great rant! Enjoy your weekend! I am off to California tomorrow, to paint landscapes for 10 days, so I will also not be posting much either!

Michael K.,

Shit man, my imagination wonders at all the stuff that went on between your lines.

Michael


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Post 92

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 6:13pmSanction this postReply
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Oh the mendacity, the mendacity!

YOU, Sir Linz, have made shameless unmitigated misuse of your slanderous pen by insinuating that I am a...

That I am a...

That I am a... Grrrrr OOOPEEE!!!!

I am outraged, suh!

I can only attribute such nefarious verbiage to the last vestiges of a too slowly atrophying Randroidism and the everlasting Immaculate Perception of the Perfection of Ayn doctrine, especially as to where she has engaged her potent and many talents in the vanquish of that dastardly villain, Immanuel Kant.

Shall I bleat, suh? I shall. And I shall not ascend easily to the torching stake, suh, for daring to entertain that ultimate sacrilege, that unpardonable blasphemy - Ayn Hiccuped.

As to Rawls, I shall take her at her word in the whole for now because I trust her. But should I ever be summoned to engage my modest literary capacities in commentary on A Theory of Justice or other repository of entertaining discourse, and should I be held publicly accountable for any such unobtrusive contribution as I may provide, I shall rely on Ms. Rand's Olympian pronouncements merely as a signpost, not source. You can bet your little bootie that I will cover mine by reading that ignominious tome from end to end and making sure that I know precisely what I am talking about.

What is it you propound here, suh, in the voice of Sir Cresswell as reasoned refutation?

An asshole?
An idiot? 
A man with a plan?

Moreover, shall we now adopt that well-worn subterfuge all too well known by Christians, where you are instructed that the Bible cannot be taken literally - but that it must be interpreted instead? Shall we say that no definitions in the voice of our Prime Mover is now to be interpreted as overkill?

As you can see, suh, despite any admonitions from my female ancestor, my visual capabilities are quite intact - so your allegations of PW are groundless and completely unfounded.

I shall manifest consideration on your Rouseau ruminations in a futurity.

Michael

(Yea gods! What is that green hair sprouting on my palms?)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 3/03, 6:26pm)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 3/03, 8:59pm)


Post 93

Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 11:43pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Cresswell is such a magnificent beast when he's angry. Even borrows my epithets. Never mind. I don't think any more need be said about definitions.

Mr. Kelly—you can't hide behind humour. Keep taking the pills, & pray we'll be merciful with you. Or you might go the way of the hapless Mr. Davison.

Post 94

Friday, March 4, 2005 - 12:11amSanction this postReply
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Marcus and Linz,

If I applied the same methods of misinterpration to your words that you are applying to mine, I would conclude that you are opposed to "intellectual quality and persuasiveness." I would conclude that you don't think there are any standards to a good argument or a written work. I would also conclude that you are principally opposed to reading.

But I am not leveling you with adjectives, because I know that you don't believe such things. So, let's take a look at each of my "contradictions":

I said: It is the intellectual quality and persuasiveness of her other works that seperates them from all the others...If it ought to be demanded of academics, concerning Rand, then it should be demanded of Rand, concerning Kant and Rawls.

You misintepreted this to mean "the length of one's qualifications," in the sense of degrees and credentials and what-not! Exactly why would you say that, especially when in this very quote I praise Rand's equally "un-qualified" other work??!! I am arguing that Rand's methods in this matter, the *quality and persuasiveness of her argument*, does not live up to the quality and persuasiveness of her other works, nor to what she could have done. You guys may disagree. Fine! But don't you dare accuse me of intellectual snobbery, and don't you dare equate "quality and persuasiveness" with academic degrees and "professional" qualifications -- unless, of course, you are Groupies of Academe.

I said: That means reading a book you wish to review and presenting its ideas fairly--not just predicting them based on what you perceive to be the premise.

Is that a complaint that Rand didn't read every word from every academic wanker, as Linz has incessantly harped throughout this thread? Does that mean that the issue is the extent of Rand's general lifetime reading? No and no. It is a very specific complaint, which supported my reason for saying that Rand's argument lacked quality and persuasiveness. I was not setting up a page-race. I was specifically saying that if you wish to convincingly write about the specific ideas contained in a specific book, then you should read that book and not merely guess those ideas based on a general premise, which is necessarily simplified and vague. I think that is a standard that every blind critic of Rand should live up to (whether or not they end up being wrong about her); and I think it is one that Rand should have lived up to, re Rawls. What's more, I specifically said that the biggest deficiency in the treatment of Rand by her critics is their refusal to read her and present her ideas fairly, and that that was in itself a more important issue than whether or not they agree with her. I asked if you agreed (and assume you do) but I got no response, because if you were to answer "yes," then you would be in the position of advocating a double-standard.

(As for Linz's recent hypothesis, I find it absurd to suppose that, if every academic claimed they would never read her because it was enough to know her main premise by reading an accurate review of her, Rand would have been perfectly okay with it.)

Again, you may disagree with all of this. Fine! What is not fine is wildly misinterpreting my words, as is apparent even in your chosen quotations, and then accusing me of contradiction based on that misintepretation. I extended you the courtesy and honesty of not going on a bare-skinned, ass-first slide down a long slippery slope when assessing your arguments -- even though your words much more directly implied the stupid things I stated in the first paragraph. You did not extend the same courtesy to me.

If you don't acknowledge your mistake in doing so, I will have to sadly conclude that the loss of respect is mutual. I really hope that does not have to be the case.

"That Poster" 


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Post 95

Friday, March 4, 2005 - 12:22amSanction this postReply
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Who the hell is hiding? I just got a little bored repeating the same thing, so I doctored it up a little.

Incidentally, I have yet to decipher what a "pomo" is.

Michael



Post 96

Friday, March 4, 2005 - 12:33amSanction this postReply
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Well, I would have got bored repeating that fence-sitting crap too.

"Pomo" = post-modern.

Linz

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Post 97

Friday, March 4, 2005 - 12:42amSanction this postReply
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Linz - Ahre you aware, suh, that "perigo" means "danger" in Portuguese?

Michael


Post 98

Friday, March 4, 2005 - 12:52amSanction this postReply
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Um, the meaning of "Perigo" has been widely touted on this site, including in the ad for the biography of me published in New Zealand that SOLO is also selling.

Word of advice for newbies—take the trouble to familiarise yourselves with your hosts & what makes them tick. :-)

Linz

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Post 99

Friday, March 4, 2005 - 11:44amSanction this postReply
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Hahah, Lindsay, you are also aware that "SOLO" is not only the acronym for this site, but also a word describing a performance by a single individual, right? Right?

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