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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 1:30amSanction this postReply
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A perfect elucidation of the principles that should apply, Tibor. It only needs to be added that others–her family—*are* prepared to pick up the tab & should be allowed to do so. The husband, to put it charitably, is a scum-bucket. Having got his payout, he invented a caveat so he could be shot of Terri. Terri is clearly (except to a half-wit) responsive, understanding of speech, music & television programmes, in love with life—& retains at least the rudiments of conceptualisation. Starving her to death when her family are prepared to pay the cost of keeping her alive is unspeakably monstrous, & I can't believe anyone here is defending it. If this be the view of enlightened, scientific secularism, I say give me Dubya's "theocracy" any time!

Linz

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 1:51amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

It's nice to find myself in agreement with you on something -- since coming over here to defend RRND/FND/ISIL, I hadn't had the pleasure of happening across such an instance!

Tom Knapp

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 1:56amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

I don't know how we are supposed to make such decisions from our arm-chairs without ourselves sifting through all the facts as collected by the courts.

However, maybe you think the courts are wrong and the law is an ass?

Then we must no longer have an independent judiciary, don't you think, as we can no longer trust courts to do the right thing? The executive must actively interfere from now on.

If her Husband really knows that her wish is to die, would not allowing her to die be the moral thing to do? A big problem is no one can actually ask her what her wishes are as there is no way to communicate with her. Everyone arguing for her life seems to lose sight of that. If euthanasia were legal she would have no way of telling us whether or not she wanted to end her life. And if she could, the pro-life guys would probably argue that she was not capable of making rational decisions for herself. 

If euthanasia were legal - she would already be long dead and would not have had to suffer death in such a barbaric fashion. That is the tragedy, that zealous religious nuts have stopped people from being able to die humanely and with dignity if they wish.


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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 2:09amSanction this postReply
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Marcus, you astonish me. Incredibly, you say:

"If her Husband really knows that her wish is to die, would not allowing her to die be the moral thing to do?"

First, she quite clearly does not wish to die. Just *look* at the way she responds to her loved ones (& how clearly she realises that the scumbucket husband is not one of them)!

Second, if she recorded such a wish prior to going into her "vegatative" state (caused by the scumbucket husband beating her up, as shown by body scans), WHERE IS IT??

Third, how is it that the scumbucket husband conveniently remembers this wish *after* he gets his payout?? The fucking low-life creep!

Again I say, if starving this woman to death be the favoured option of enlightened science, then I'm a Muslim, proudly.

Linz
(Edited by Lindsay Perigo
on 3/24, 2:28am)


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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 2:36amSanction this postReply
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You know, I still haven't understood the basics of just why this woman should be starved, and I repeat the question I asked in my only other post on this subject, and I second Lindsay's sentiments.

First of all, could everyone please shutup about all your paranoia. I understand being afraid of federal expansion -- trust me, I understand. But not a single post favoring Schiavo's death has been written without petulant shrieks about the oncoming of theocracy, and I'm sick of it already. Such emotionalism does not suggest clear thinking or the lack of an agenda.

Second of all, I have never seen so much confidence in domestic government and "the law" from objectivists in my life! The courts, the courts, the courts -- fuck the courts for a minute, and just answer the basic questions, please, so we can get at the true justice of the matter. We all know the courts have unanimously fucked up before. So, please, somebody just answer me this:

1. Is it wrong that bruises indicating beating have been discovered on Schiavo's body?
2. Is it wrong that the only "proof" we have of Schiavo's will to die is the oral memory of her husband, to whom it occurred only after he received a multi-million dollar settlement for her indefinite care?
3. If not, then is it wrong that he is a proven liar?
4. If not, then exactly why in the hell should we believe him?

Anything can survive on irreversable legal technicalities. All I know is, if the above facts are true -- and nobody has denied them -- there is zero reason to believe Michael Schiavo, as he has every incentive to want his wife dead. And if there is zero reason to believe him, there is zero reason to grant his word the power to kill this woman -- when he doesn't have to pay a dime of support for her and there are others who are more than willing to assume her care!

So please, PLEASE, will somebody just respond to these facts.

Alec    


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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 2:41amSanction this postReply
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Postscript:

I am further amazed at how everyone is assuming the goodwill of the husband (when there is much evidence against), while shunning the possibility that her *entire family* might also want what's best for her. You think if she actually expressed her wish to die under such circumstances to her family, none of them would care enough about her to want to honor that wish? You think they are all selfishly, delusionally motivated -- while the husband is God, just because of his legal position?


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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 3:18amSanction this postReply
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Good for you, Alec.

And Tom, don't get carried away because we're in agreement here. After you posted that unspeakable thing demanding Bush eulogise the beheaders, you lost any last vestige of respect I might have had for you.

Today, in New Zealand, on nationwide television, we had a victory against a piece of Saddamite maggot-shit who'd tried to take control of NZ libertarianism with a pedophile agenda. An ISIL turd. I am joyful beyond words—& contemptuous beyond words of all who backed this subterranean evil.

Linz

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 3:20amSanction this postReply
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Linz: "Terri is clearly (except to a half-wit) responsive, understanding of speech, music & television programmes, in love with life—& retains at least the rudiments of conceptualisation."

Then I'm a half wit. And so are her doctors who say that the part of her brain responsible for conceptualization -- not to mention love of life -- has become water, also are half wits.

Barbara

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 3:34amSanction this postReply
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Perhaps it's a good idea to *look* at her, rather than rely solely on the reports of *some* doctors. We interviewed one of the doctors on Prime TV last night—he said she was in fine shape—or would be if she weren't being starved—& the situation "stinks." Meaning, her husband is a mercenary, manipulative scumbucket. And the point remains—if her family are prepared to pay to keep her alive, where's the problem? How dare the government or courts say otherwise?? I say again, Bravo, Dubya!

I note a propensity here to defend scumbuckets, but it will never be official SOLO policy.

Linz

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
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Please ignore my post to this thread. I made a mistake in posting to a thread that begins with moralizing, name-calling, and accusations against decent people. I can't change it, but I won't be part of it.

Barbara

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 3:44amSanction this postReply
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First, she quite clearly does not wish to die. Just *look* at the way she responds to her loved ones (& how clearly she realises that the scumbucket husband is not one of them)!

Second, if she recorded such a wish prior to going into her "vegatative" state (caused by the scumbucket husband beating her up, as shown by body scans), WHERE IS IT??

Third, how is it that the scumbucket husband conveniently remembers this wish *after* he gets his payout?? The fucking low-life creep!

 
OK Linz. I haven't seen any of this stuff myself - I only know what I have read in some news articles that discussed the federal intervention and not Michael Schiavo's possible motives. Whether or not the above is true I do not support her death in such a barbaric fashion - the removal of the feeding tube - the practice of life-support removal has been foisted upon us by the religious right. The same ones that hated the film "million dollar babe" due to it's depiction of euthanasia!

What I have to go on to make my judgement so far is the courts versus the media. Everyone here screams blue murder when anyone judges Michael Jackson by what they read in the media and stress that the courts must decide. How is this case different? Everyone is condemning her husband based on what they see and hear in the media.


Anything can survive on irreversable legal technicalities. All I know is, if the above facts are true -- and nobody has denied them -- there is zero reason to believe Michael Schiavo, as he has every incentive to want his wife dead.

Is that "guilty until proven innocent"?

The point I am making is that "usually" I would err on the side of the courts rather than media coverage or populist feelings. I would NOT err on the side of only ONE court ruling. However, this has been subject to multiple court rulings over several years - and even the Supreme Court three times and now a separate Federal hearing has been involved.

Can someone tell me please why in my judgement I should err on the side of the media and popular opinion rather than the legal process?


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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 3:56amSanction this postReply
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"Can someone tell me please why in my judgement I should err on the side of the media and popular opinion rather than the legal process?"

Marcus,

I attempted to address your question here:

http://www.solohq.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0388_4.shtml#94

I would add this:

"Law is nothing unless close behind it stands a warm, living opinion."
—Wendell Phillips

Post 12

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 4:15amSanction this postReply
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Marcus, could you please tell me why you've made this into a battle between the courts and the media? It should be one of reason vs. unreason.

Guilty until proven innocent? That's interesting -- I didn't know Michael was the one whose life was on the line here. Last I checked, he wasn't being prosecuted. Rather, we are about to sentence a woman to death based solely on his word! If any presumption is going on here, it's that Terri wants to die until it's proven she wants to live.

So again, I don't see how your spinning this thing, Marcus. This should be a matter of facts. The facts I mentioned in my post are not mere media speculations -- they are facts, proven facts, and they've never been denied. There is no basis in morality, per se, to grant a husband the type of power that Michael has in this case. It's purely a matter of practical law, devised on the premise that the husband would know what's best for his spouse. (Given the higher incidence of marital violence, over blood-familial violence, I think it is ridiculous in principle to allow spouses such unconditionally overriding power.)

Now the question is this: is Michael justified in having this power? Is he justified in being able to order his wife to die, with no evidence of her wish to do so -- when her entire family is against it?

The fact of his past redolent behavior suggests that the answer is NO.

Again, we are not assigning guilt here. We are assessing the validity of someone having the power to order a death! That's not a natural right that requires proof of guilt to extract. It's a highly questionable privilege that requires total proof of legitimacy to maintain.


Post 13

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 4:43amSanction this postReply
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Barbara said:
the part of her brain responsible for conceptualization -- not to mention love of life
This recalls the very relevant question: "Do you still beat your wife?"


Post 14

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 4:59amSanction this postReply
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Commenting on what Tibor actually wrote:
I am now old enough to have made my will instructing that if I ever reach such a state, I do not want anyone to prolong my mere survival.
This is a little ambiguous so I'd like to point out some things.

My main point is that I hope that Tibor has executed a Living Will concerning his desires and that copies of it are in several places including his doctor's office and his home but not in a safe deposit box. I hope that Tibor was not referring to his Last Will and Testament since that is effective only after his death.

In addition to a Living Will everyone, regardless of age should have a Health Care Power of Attorney. Accidents happen at all ages. It is not just the elderly who need such documents.

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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 5:07amSanction this postReply
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Rodney - for once in your life, why don't you show a little moral gumption & state your position openly, instead of posting smart-ass riddles?

Tom - having read this on your Saddamite-ISIL post tonight, I reiterate that I've lost all respect for you. "Collaborator forces"? "Insurgent [sic]"?

You sick, evil fuck.



1. Iraq: US, collaborator forces overrun resistance base
----------
CNN

"After a two-hour firefight, Iraqi forces and U.S. helicopters
captured an insurgent [sic] base north of Baghdad, killing 85 rebels,
U.S. and Iraqi military officials said Wednesday. 'A previous safe
haven for planning attacks has been removed,' a U.S. military
official said of Tuesday's battle. Although the Iraqi military said
it killed 85 insurgents [sic] during the firefight, the U.S. military
said the number of rebel dead was 'undetermined.'" (03/23/05)


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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 5:20amSanction this postReply
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Rick wrote:
My main point is that I hope that Tibor has executed a Living Will concerning his desires and that copies of it are in several places including his doctor's office and his home but not in a safe deposit box. I hope that Tibor was not referring to his Last Will and Testament since that is effective only after his death.

In addition to a Living Will everyone, regardless of age should have a Health Care Power of Attorney. Accidents happen at all ages. It is not just the elderly who need such documents.
This issue has enough importance to warrant an article unto itself.  Perhaps a SOLO attorney or other knowledgeable person would like to submit an article on this subject.  My wife and I have both these documents as part of our overall estate plan, though I am not sure what safe place Rick proposes to keep the master copies if not in a safe deposit box.  Barring an unlikely accident that incapacitates both spouses simultaneously, a safe deposit box jointly held seems the best place for the masters.


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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 5:59amSanction this postReply
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Taking the facts that Linz and Alec have presented here as true (and I have no reason to doubt them) - then I do not agree that Mr Schiavo should have the power of life and death over his wife.

However, I am still trying to digest this. The implication is then that there has been a serious miscarriage of justice. It's not just one miscarriage - but multiple miscarriages. And at the highest level - supreme and federal courts!

If the legal system in the US is so flawed, is it still safe for me to travel there?


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Post 18

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 6:12amSanction this postReply
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From the reports I’ve read, she is in an irreversible vegetative state. I gather that the isolated film clip is a small snippet of a totality that would otherwise show she is not aware. Brain scans, surgery, and other methods indicate no activity consistent with human consciousness unless you believe in a supernatural soul. The accidental autonomous flinching can, with skilled film-editing, appear to be a response. And it makes good media to keep this issue alive.

My conclusion is that there is no Teri anymore. There’s no one to die. She’s gone. What am I missing?



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Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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Linz, your post #15 merits a separate thread. Calling the Baathist thugs and al Qaeda terrorist headhunters "the resistance," while describing the Iraqis fighting them as "collaborator forces" betrays what has been long denied by these "libertarians": a blatant anti-Americanism.

Let's take this one outside of this thread.


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