About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 5:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, I found this article quite interesting.  It would benefit from some concrete examples of reciprocal altruism in action, though.  Can you supply us with some anecdotes to illustrate the anti-concept as its beneficiaries would employ it?  I can make guesses but would prefer to read the concretes from you.

Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks Luther (can I call you Luke?).

Two real-life examples of Reciprocal Altruism have crossed my path recently:

1) My friend Roger plays tournament poker (where money is pooled; and the top 3 winners take all). He goes to the tournaments with a friend. Tournaments include a dozen or two dozen players total.

He recently admitted to me that, when his friend's "chips are down" and Roger's hand is good, then he will deliberately "fold" his good poker hand--to help his friend win. I'll bet he's hoping that his friend reciprocates this generosity--when Roger's chips are down.

2) I am a novice powerlifter. I send off money (registration fee) to enter the contests. The hosts of these contests say that they will take the first 40 or 50 applicants, and then close registration for that meet (more than 50 competitors would take all day!).

Now, on the registration form there is an option to include the purchase of a T-shirt ($10). Not knowing the morality of the host (do they REALLY take the FIRST 50?--Or do they favor some entries over others?); and realizing that an extra $10, if it helps guarantee my entry, is worth it to me--I always buy a shirt.

In short, I'm hoping that my "T-shirt buying" generosity will be rewarded.

Note how my friend Roger can work out details of mutual sacrifice with his friend; and note how I have calculated that my "generosity" is still a value to me (I'd pay an extra $10 regardless--in order to compete!)

Ed



Post 2

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit


Good article Ed, I enjoyed it, well done...


Post 3

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 6:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Luther, I just realized that I did not answer your question:
"Can you supply us with some anecdotes to illustrate the anti-concept as its beneficiaries would employ it?" 
Instead of giving you the illustrations of the theorists, I gave you a couple of my own illustrations on this matter. The cardinal illustration for reciprocal altruism is the Prisoner's Dilemma.

Relevant definition of Prisoner's Dilemma (adapted from Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy; 2nd Ed.):

Two prisoners, interrogated separately; are offered the same deal: If one confesses (defects) and the other does not, then the defector will go free and the other gets a stiff prison sentence; If both confess, both get moderate prison terms; If both remain silent*, both get light prison terms

*In real life, prisoners often remain silent (they don't defect on one another--even though it would personally help them get a lighter sentence!).

By mis-identifying cut-throat, self-serving behavior as "rational behavior," researchers have been dumbfounded by the real-life results of Prisoner's Dilemma scenarios.

Their conceptual mis-integration involves adopting a pseudo-concept for rational other-serving behavior (ie. Reciprocal Altruism), in order to explain what their initial assumptions had prevented them from explaining.

In other words, instead of checking their premises (Is cut-throat behavior always rational?), they merely layered on (think of an onion) an anti-concept to ease the pain of cognitive dissonance which they experience when examining the real world with their conceptual blinders on.

Here is a stab at their most fundamentally-unproductive premise:

Rationality cannot be moral (the moral cannot be the practical).

Ed


(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 3/30, 6:47pm)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/31, 3:30pm)


Post 4

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks Shane.

I was compelled to write this after having a discussion with Marcus in the economics forum. Marcus and I were trying to conceptualize what it is that Reciprocal Altruism could / should mean--needless to say, we were not all that successful in arriving at a clarified--and clarifying--distinction of it.

By the way, thanks for your insightful criticisms, Marcus!

Ed

Post 5

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 12:49amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Ed,

I thought your article was very good and described clearly why "reciprocal altruism" is an anti-concept.
However, now I am confused because in your post you gave real life examples of reciprocal altruism.

I don't understand how reciprocal altruism can both exist in reality and be an anti-concept. If it exists in nature then surely it is a valid concept that describes reality?


Post 6

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 6:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, great article.  This is a useful analysis, as the idea that "in the long run, this act could be to my benefit" can be deceptively beguiling.

Marcus - If I may take a stab at your question:  anti-concepts are not concepts that have no tie to reality.  The example of an anti-concept that I remember most from Rand's writing was "extremism."  Now, of course, extremism exists in reality; it can come in different forms; and it meets Ed's distilled points #2 and #3.  It's used to cut off rational debate by appealing to a fear of certain valid types of condemnable extremism by calling all extremism evil.  And it combines "disparate elements" - examples of extremism we would consider good (e.g., extreme health) with those we would consider bad (e.g., extreme sickness).

Ed may have a different take on your question or better clarification.

Jason


Post 7

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jason, while I do like your answer to Marcus' question, I would like to expand on it ...

The behaviors (the prisoners', my friend's, my own) that need explaining already exist. What is needed is a proper explanation of what exists. Anti-concepts* improperly explain that which exists.

Note how I had a caveat (a proper explanation) at the end of my examples:

Post 1 ...
"Note how my friend Roger can work out details of mutual sacrifice with his friend; and note how I have calculated that my "generosity" is still a value to me (I'd pay an extra $10 regardless--in order to compete!)" 
and

Post 3 ...
"By mis-identifying cut-throat, self-serving behavior as "rational behavior," researchers have been dumbfounded by the real-life results of Prisoner's Dilemma scenarios."
Marcus, it is simply not rational to act on a short-range selfishness (as animals do), but knucklehead researchers who've been contemporarily schooled don't seem to see this point--so they posit that there is some new, ephemeral, unexplained "other-serving" behavior out there; and then they coin a term for it.

Rational selfishness is long-range (life-span) selfishness. Humans, because they are rational, recognize the value of others as trading partners. They see folks for what they are: wellsprings of value, not cannon fodder or cattle to be slaughtered in the moment that it seems expedient.

If these researchers had just retained what they had learned from children's books, then they would have been just fine (they would have their heads on straight).

A great example (explaining rational behavior that "seems" other serving) is the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg:

The goose laid golden eggs and the farmer kept the goose alive ("serving" the interests of the goose)--getting rich off of this wellspring of value. Some irrational value-destroyer (I think it was his wife!) chopped the head off the goose in order to cook it. The moral of the story is: don't look a gift-horse in the mouth (don't bite the hand that feeds you).

This moral has been lost on researchers who don't understand that humans are rational, will be self-serving, and will trade value (no new concept is needed to explain their behavior; ethical egoism already does this).

-----------------
*These improper explanations of reality can come into being in one of 2 ways: either through innocent ignorance (Rand's Errors of Knowledge), or through deliberate evasion (to serve some irrational purpose).
-----------------

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 3/31, 9:59am)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/31, 3:31pm)


Post 8

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Anti-concepts are:
1)      a new term, not needed, nor rationally usable

2)      designed to replace or obliterate a legitimate concept
3)      a “package deal” of disparate elements, defined by a non-essential
Jason,

If it describes something that exists in reality how can it not be rationally usuable?


Post 9

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Anti-concepts improperly explain that which exists.
Oh I see. So the examples you gave in post#1 would be more properly described as "ethical egoism"?




(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 3/31, 10:11am)


Post 10

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Marcus, it seems our posts have crossed (my post above answers your question). Here is a response anyway:

-----------
Question:
"If it describes something that exists in reality how can it not be rationally usuable?" 
Answer:
By "wrongly" describing something that exists in reality.
----------

Another example of an anti-concept is a "rain-maker"-- a mystic who dances and chants to bring rain. His dancin' and chantin' wrongly explain any rain that does, occasionally come*. Villagers, believing this wrong explanation, may have overestimated his value to the village (tribe) and may have showered him with gifts and luxuries when their fields were dry.

----------
*a "good" rainmaker would be expected to learn about the weather--and to dance only when rain was indeed probable
----------

Rainmaking, wherever it has been posited, is a false explanation of the real rain that has fallen to the earth.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/31, 3:32pm)


Post 11

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Marcus, our posts crossed again. Here is a reply to your last question:
"So the examples you gave in post#1 would be more properly described as "ethical egoism"?" 
Yes, but let's not stop there ... ALL rational behavior by humans "would be more properly described as 'ethical egoism.'"

This last point is the non-integrated fact of reality escaping the consciousness of these otherwise-valuable game theory researchers.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/31, 3:33pm)


Post 12

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes right, ethical egoism does not describe this case specifically. However, I am still curious how it is possible to give an example as you did.

The nature of reciprocity and the nature of altruism are DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED!  This “package deal” combines such disparate elements as to mean anything to anyone - or nothing at all (it is rationally unusable – a true mind-destroyer).
 
You state here "reciprocal altruism" can mean anything to anyone - which is why I don't understand how you can give a concrete example of it.
 
Maybe you were you just pouring anti-concrete? :-)


Post 13

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hmmmm - do wonder what an anti-fabricated house would look like......

Post 14

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Marcus, an original question of yours was:
If it describes something that exists in reality how can it not be rationally usuable?
To which I replied:
What is needed is a proper explanation of what exists. Anti-concepts* improperly explain that which exists.
Now, at this point, you could do one of two things. You could:

1) Recognize that the anti-concept, as a tool by which we understand the world, is actually antithetical to real understandings of the world (anti-concepts muddle things--really existing things in our lives--rather than properly explaining them)

or, you could

2) Conflate these pseudo-concepts with that which they attempt to explain, reverse the logical order of genesis for these 2 things (really existing things, and conceptual tools for understanding), and then claim that there cannot be a concrete example, to which these concepts refer--ie. you take the anti-concept as the primary, by which concrete examples can never flow (which is internally valid, but not externally valid)

It appears that you chose option 2, but possibly only in jest?:
You state here "reciprocal altruism" can mean anything to anyone - which is why I don't understand how you can give a concrete example of it.
 
Maybe you were you just pouring anti-concrete? :-)
Perhaps I should have been more clear in setting up my examples. My examples were not examples of concretes that derive from anti-concepts--they are examples of concretes that are often mistakenly interpreted (wrongly explained) by appeal to an anti-concept.

R. Malcom, I can never figure you out, so I will refrain from responding to your apparent aphorism. I can't seem to tell when you are merely joking, or when you are actually pulling a "Bertrand Russel" on me. Warning: if you admit to the latter, I'll take you on anyday Malcom; you don't scare me (well, maybe a little--as you have had more experience in life than I have). 

Ed


Post 15

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
My examples were not examples of concretes that derive from anti-concepts--they are examples of concretes that are often mistakenly interpreted (wrongly explained) by appeal to an anti-concept.
Could you please go back to your examples in post #1 and show why the anti-concept "reciprocal altruism" is not rational in each case and what rational concept(s) would better describe the behaviour?

Thanks for clearing that up Ed :-)


Post 16

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Marcus,
Could you please go back to your examples in post #1 and show why the anti-concept "reciprocal altruism" is not rational in each case and what rational concept(s) would better describe the behaviour?
I will if it is still needed, but before I do, I would like to first show this with an easier example. I would like to show this rationality/anti-rationality relationship with my rain-maker example first. If this easier example is still unclear to you, then I will do as you ask and "take on" the other examples--the ones which I have illustrated in Post 1:

Is the "concept" of a rain-maker ...
1)      a new term, not needed, nor rationally usable
Yes. Mystical men are not needed to explain rain--naturalistic explanation already does. Also, because mysticism CONTRADICTS naturalism, it is not rational usable (ie. the only rational use of contradiction is of the negative kind; positive examples of contradictions are meaningless).
 
Is the "concept" of a rain-maker ...
2)      designed to replace or obliterate a legitimate concept
Yes. The legitimate concepts which entail the Primacy of Existence (existence, identity, and causality) are obliterated with the rain-maker anti-concept. The anti-concept of a rain-maker is an example of the Primacy of Consciousness--leaving no room for the Primacy of Existence.
 
Is the "concept" of a rain-maker ...
3)      a “package deal” of disparate elements, defined by a non-essential
Yes. Man is man and rain is rain. There is no connection between the mind of man and the rain in Spain (although I hear it falls there mainly on the plain). The relevant questions hereby begged would be:
 
Is a rain-maker a man, or a god (an "existence-maker"). Which qualities does he display? What is it to be a man? What power does man have? Is he a special man? Are there others like him?
 
Ed
 
 
 


Post 17

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

 

Marcus, here is an attempt to show 2 things:

 

A)    “why the anti-concept ‘reciprocal altruism’ is not rational in each case [below]”

 

AND

 

B) “what rational concept(s) would better describe the behaviour.”

1) My friend Roger plays tournament poker (where money is pooled; and the top 3 winners take all). He goes to the tournaments with a friend. Tournaments include a dozen or two dozen players total.

He recently admitted to me that, when his friend's "chips are down" and Roger's hand is good, then he will deliberately "fold" his good poker hand--to help his friend win. I'll bet he's hoping that his friend reciprocates this generosity--when Roger's chips are down.


In this example, Roger is “betting” on his friend “reciprocating” the generosity at some future point in time.

 

The rational concept (option B above) is the trading principle of rational egoism—ie. Roger chooses behavior (cooperation) that WILL BENEFIT ROGER over the course of the entire tournament.

 

In contrast, the anti-concept of reciprocal altruism insinuates that Roger seeks to sacrifice himself for a greater good, but that Roger is rational enough to know that he cannot do this indiscriminately—so he must use reciprocity to justify his sacrifices.

2) I am a novice power-lifter. I send off money (registration fee) to enter the contests. The hosts of these contests say that they will take the first 40 or 50 applicants, and then close registration for that meet (more than 50 competitors would take all day!).

Now, on the registration form there is an option to include the purchase of a T-shirt ($10). Not knowing the morality of the host (do they REALLY take the FIRST 50?--Or do they favor some entries over others?); and realizing that an extra $10, if it helps guarantee my entry, is worth it to me--I always buy a shirt.

In short, I'm hoping that my "T-shirt buying" generosity will be rewarded.


The rational concept (option B above) is the trading principle of rational egoism—ie. I’m choosing behavior (relative generosity) that WILL BENEFIT ME. It can’t however, if it involves a sacrifice. A sacrifice (a necessary component of any altruistic notion) involves trading what has higher value to you, for what has lower value to you (but also has some supposed “intrinsic value—one that is higher than any individual’s personal value). As I value my own entry into these competitions more than I value a measly $10, I have not sacrificed a higher value for a lower one—I have merely acted according to my hierarchy of values.

 

In contrast, the anti-concept of reciprocal altruism insinuates that I am sacrificing value (and hoping that others will somehow reciprocate in kind—so that we can all mutually benefit from our mutual sacrifice).

 
This is irrational because only the acting agents know, really know, their own hierarchy of value, in any given situation. We cannot wait for others to magically read our value systems and step in to offer us exactly what we need/desire, at the best moment, and in the best way—so as to maximize our individual utility. One big drawback to altruism of all varieties, for instance, is the harm to the self-esteem of beneficiaries--an aspect of reality that has been known for decades:

It has often been said that power corrupts. But it is perhaps equally important to realize that weakness, too, corrupts. Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many. Hatred, malice, rudeness, intolerance, and suspicion are the faults of weakness. The resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them but from their sense of inadequacy and impotence. We cannot win the weak by sharing our wealth with them. They feel our generosity as oppression. –Eric Hoffer 

Source:

http://www.freedomsnest.com/cgi-bin/q.cgi?subject=corruption

 
Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/31, 6:07pm)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/31, 6:07pm)


Post 18

Friday, April 1, 2005 - 12:41amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks for clarifying that Ed.

Yes I agree completely. Altruism is supposed to an unselfish concern or sacrifice for the welfare of others.
If it were reciprocal, i.e. expecting a return, it could hardly be described any longer as unselfish.

When I posted the original science paper, I had never heard the term "reciprocal altruism" before. However, you seem to have quite a bit of knowledge of game theory. Is "reciprocal altruism" a commonly used term in that field? Do you know how "new" this expression is? Do you not think that the use of the term "reciprocal altruism"  is just an indication of the ridiculous basis behind many of the games in game theory in general?


Post 19

Friday, April 1, 2005 - 1:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Marcus, you asked:
---------
"However, you seem to have quite a bit of knowledge of game theory. Is 'reciprocal altruism' a commonly used term in that field?"


Yes, though it is not "commonly" accepted outright by the researchers. Its main competitor is the idea of kin selection:

We help those who retain a portion of our genome, and we help those with more of our genome more than we help those with less of our genome (our kids get more help than our cousins, because our kids have more of our genome than our cousins, etc).
---------

Do you know how "new" this expression is?


The first peer-review article introducing it was:
Trivers, R. L. The evolution of reciprocal altruism. Q. Rev. Biol. 46:35-57 (1971).
---------

Do you not think that the use of the term "reciprocal altruism"  is just an indication of the ridiculous basis behind many of the games in game theory in general?


No. Although I can understand the intellectual revolt that is often brought to light when examining the folly of many game theorists, I'd like to say the an individual's folly does not always eradicate the value of their field (think of judging the whole of philosophy--by the mere preponderance of its current professionals)

Also, behavior ought to be explained (so that we can predict consequences of various action plans--either individually, or for "society" as a whole, for political value). And if game theory helps in this, then game theory has value.

One way to go about this explanation of behaviors, is to start with easy behaviors (and move to the more complex after understanding the simple). Another way is to start with easy "agents" (acting agents choosing different behaviors), like chimps, and move to humans after understanding them.

Though studying chimps may be seen by some as unproductive (generalizations from chimps to humans are often spurious), I still think that there is value to starting on such a small scale (as I alluded to above).

A great value would be found, for instance, if biological altruism was empirically proven to be impossible in the natural world. We already have rational proof in Rand and others--it would just help to have experimental proof, for the vulgar empiricists that are so common today.

With regard to understanding the behavior of chimps, there is only one known case of apparent "altruism" in chimps: meat sharing. This "altruism" has been explained away via reference to self-interest. Here is a summary of this:

" ... the primary motivation of the animal possessing the meat may simply be self-protection. Because chimps have a relatively open dominance hierarchy (van Lawick-Goodall 1968, Teleki 1973), the possessor of the meat (Ego) is potentially vulnerable to attack by Others who desire a share. Meat is an easily carried (and shielded) resource, so the probability of Other gaining possession of the meat with a casual threat is low, whereas the cost of a real attack is potentially high (e.g., energy loss, risk of injury). Note that if Other judges this potential cost to be less than the benefit, Ego is still at risk; furthermore, just the need to guard against a possible attack by Other is a problem for Ego: the resource may be defendable but there is no opportunity to eat it. It may therefore be in Ego's immediate interest to give up part of the kill, trading it for the opportunity to eat what is left in relative peace."

source:
http://www.socialsciences.ucsd.edu/~jmoore/publications/Recip.html

This meat-sharing explanation is good: Altruism is (empirically) looking less and less life-supporting, thanks to game theory and similar research*.

*Similar (and often identical) research to Game Theory is often found under the headings: Decision Theory and Rational Choice Theory


Ed

Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.