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Post 20

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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James wrote:

"I'm staggered by the the good will in your responses! I wish I was as grown up as many of you are."

James, you are saying this to the defenders of caterwauling! PLEASE DO NOT GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!! :-)

"Never let anyone talk you out of something that gives you pleasure in music. But always know that you may see things in a different light at a later time."

Two assumptions on the part of the pro-caterwaulers always infect these discussions: 1) That we anti-caterwaulers want to *ban* caterwauling (hasn't crept into this one yet); 2) That we wish to *convert* the pro-caterwaulers. I always say, though it doesn't always get through - leave people alone to like what they like. Doesn't alter the fact that the widespread popularity of caterwauling is symptomatic of a sick culture. or that I personally should stay silent about that. Sometimes, of course, a Bertelsen or a Bissell will have his ears opened, with a bit of guidance, which is outstanding, but it wasn't the result of a hounding crusade on my or anyone else's part. Remember, *this* article was prompted by someone's attempt to "convert" James to caterwauling!! :-)

"Linz, you and I are so alike in how we hear much music that it is almost scary. Even so, I am still forced to to be compiling a list of 10 pieces of music that you have missed just to spare your soul from eternal damnation."

I look forward to that, though remember that around here it is *I* who damn folk to hell, & I guard my prerogative jealously. You presume to usurp it at your own eternal peril! Heh!

Lucifer-Linz






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Post 21

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
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Philip, and Jordon, I really liked your posts. Philip, I was thinking about this all day, and had the same thought you did about Objectifying music. I think you captured it nicely.
Jordan, I like your point about the false dichotomy.


James, the reason why their is so much good will toward this, rather than the usual uproar around here on the topic, is the spirit in which you approached this project. Sure, you didn't like the music, but you acted like an explorer who is willing to take risks and venture out into another's personal world. You were honest about your assessment, which means you respect that those of us making the suggestions are mature enough to handle it. And you didn't judge until you listened, YOU ACTUALLY LISTENED!

Dude, you have my respect.

I wasn't trying to convert anyone, by the way, just to share something that means a lot to me. Trying to convert anyone to a musical form, I learned, is futile. My grandfather, for example, won't listen to anything other than country, because everything else sounds "Spanish" to him. A friend of mine back in high school looked at me 20 kinds of funny when I played her a song that made me shiver.
I learned then that not every one perceives music the same way, and it can't be forced.
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 5/06, 5:30pm)


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Post 22

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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David- opera is not a hobby- it'a disease with no known cure. Welcome to the infirmary. Your discovery of Lanza on Solo is one of the highlights of my first year here. You took about 10 years off of me and maybe 15 off of Linz. It is wonderful when someone really hears something you hear.

Phil et. al. -although there are many reasons someone may prefer one piece of music over another, the relative talent, effort and and skills, as well as the body of knowledge needed to perform some music vs. other music is not "just a matter of opinion". One has the right to hold the opinion that Madonna is greater than Maria Callas, or the Beatles White Album is greater than Puccini's Turandot. One always should have the right to be stupid.

Also, it is not just coincidence that rock music is almost all politically left inspired. But that is for another day.

Pete- I believe you are probably right that I won't love Rush, although I hold out some hope because of their Rand connection. I really don't consider my time wasted with Yes, as I learned something. And, frankly, I am just not all that in demand around the world, so I have plenty of time to follow my fancies.

Laurie- I appreciate your faith in me expressed by not giving up on my salvation.
Andrew- don't despair. You can melt down your Rock CD's and sculpt a bust of Lanza for your new music room.

John - I have suits that are forty years old.
Max- I was born shortly before the invention of children.



Post 23

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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quote: Trying to convert anyone to a musical form, I learned, is futile

Don't give up. When I met my wife I hated Opera. I couldn't get past the melodrama and the screaming (what the singing sounded like to me at the time). She would continue to play her CDs of arias, though. Then, one day, O soave fanciulla (last aria, act 1 of La Boheme) was playing. Like a light being turned on or a lense being focused I realized that this was the most beautiful thing I'd ever heard.

So, tastes can change. I don't know if one can go from Opera to Yes, but you can certainly go the other way. But, I still love Yes and prog rock in general. It's interesting to me that a lot of Objectivists like Yes. I haven't put my finger on the connection.

FYI - for those who like Yes, you must check out The Flower Kings: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003000F - a prog band from the 90s - my favorite from that era.


Post 24

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, maybe it's not FUTILE...I just don't have the energy or the desire to do so. Still, it is nice when someone does share the same likes. But I'd rather spend my time listening!

Post 25

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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quote: Puccini's Turandot
Can I fawn a moment? Is this not the greatest work of art of any kind ever created?

I have had the supreme pleasure of seeing this performed at the Met in New York with the Zeffirelli production. Pure ecstasy.

(Edited by Jordan Zimmerman on 5/06, 4:07pm)


Post 26

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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Random fact for your amusement: my daughters went to school with a boy named Yes, and, yes, he was named after the rock band. As Dave Barry would say, I am not making this up. I suppose it's better than being named god (with a small g) as Grace Slick named her child.


Post 27

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
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> [James] Phil et. al. -although there are many reasons someone may prefer one piece of music over another, the relative talent, effort and and skills, as well as the body of knowledge needed to perform some music vs. other music is not "just a matter of opinion".

I agree! And thank you for the excellent article...I hope I didn't hijack it with what I was posting about.

( BTW, James I very much enjoyed meeting you and talking with you a bit at the recent conference. You were one of the group of classy people who was unfailingly considerate and polite and tried to make a newcomer feel at home. )

Phil Coates

Post 28

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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Linz- I gave up the thought of having a coup last year when I realized I would basically be overthrowing myself. I remain your humble servant.

Joe, I thank you for your kind words. I would like to read your comments on Yes- can you direct me to where you posted them? I remember that I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about it.
Actually, having attended college in the sixties, I remember with great fondness those innocent drug experiences. Chemical stimulation sure helped me get into rock in those days, but I am not advocating that for those who came later. Drugs got a lot heavier and less occasional for many, so I don't have any more of those plants with funny leaves in the garden anymore.

Jordan - there is room for all types of music. I used to always say this to my friends when I was young, but they were 100% rock and folk in those days. I do listen to some music that is lighter than what I normally discuss here, but about 5% of the time, not 100%. And then, it is Ella or Nat King Cole or their like.

As far as Turandot being the greatest art work ever, I always say the greatest opera in the world is whatever Puccini opera I listened to last.
For me, that most frequently IS Turandot. Within a month of meeting Sergio, I had called the Metropolitan Opera and purchased two 4th row center seats to the same Zeffirreli production that you saw. The words that I thought of each time I looked at Sergio were Turandot's final words of the opera, when she brings the unknown prince before her father, the emperor:

"August father, I know the name of the stranger. His name is..love!"

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Post 29

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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James, on the drug topic: sorry, I'm a little touchy about that. I grew up around them, saw firsthand what they do. (Not that I didn't do my own experimenting.) I am not naive; I know that much of rock music culture is influenced by the tune in drop out mentality. I was the outcast for not going that route. And after losing a few friends, I hate to say "I told you so..." but I told em so.

But I am bemused, at best, and resentful, at worst, about accusations that come my way about my interests when people say I must be on drugs to like this or do that. Truth is, I'm just wierd. Growing up, I was out there, I like weird things like aliens and sci fi and such. (What little kid doesn't ?) But it's not weird to me.

I remember being 4 years old when I was aware of my mom's record collection. I'd hear Pink Floyd, Yes, Rush, Elp, etc. I was too young to know about drugs, politics, philosophy. All I heard was the music, and I loved what I later learned was called prog rock. My mom played other stuff from the 50's 60's and 70's, (and eventually the 80's), and while I was aware of it, and liked some of it, I fell in love early on with the funny sounding music with the keyboards and sound effects. I was 5 when I told myself I wanted to play guitar like David Gilmour of Pink Floyd. (I didn't know his name at the time.) I was in love with the album art, which was so much more interesting than the photos of most rock albums, with the long haired guys who looked like my mom's friends. (And the art reminded me of Dr. Seuss. I think Dr. Seuss played a large part in all this. I love Dr. Seuss.) I didn't know there were restrictions in music listening, I didn't know that if you liked prog, you couldn't like new wave (and for the longest time, I thought the Cars were prog because of the keyboards. Tell that to a new wave punk fan and they will spit on you.)

But I also like astronomy and space, and I remember that when I was 4, and my father died, my sister and I were told that when you die, you become a star in the sky, and that my father was up there. I've been looking at the night sky ever since. When I was four, I wanted to be an astronaut. It was 20 years later when I realized why. But put that together with the prog and the Dr. Seuss, I think you can begin to see why I resent the drug claim. You can see why I can appreciate Lanza, and symphonic music, and rock and Motown, but they will never mean to me what Pink Floyd, Yes, Rush mean to me. When I hear "Star Man" by David Bowie, or "Rocket Man" by Elton John, I don't hear a story about a burned out hippie, I think of my father "waiting in the sky..." I see the Star man on the Rush album, and I see my father. I see Star Wars, I see my father, my dark father who I will never know. I see a spaceship on Yes's FRAGILE album, I see myself leaving Earth to find my father. I heard Pink Floyd THE WALL when I was 5. I heard the words later:

"Daddy's flown across the ocean,
leaving just a memory.
A snapshot in the family album,
Daddy what else did you leave for me?"

Roger Waters, the songwriter, may have different ideas about how to fix the world, but he and I "bonded" the day I heard those words.

Of course, I'm grown up now, and I know that it's all just a fantasy. The space Cadet set out for his father, and realized that the universe is much larger than that.But what I learned from prog rock, especially Pink Floyd, is that these tales of outer space are a metaphor for inner space, who we are on the inside. I didn't need drugs for that. I had my music. Leonard Piekoff had it right when he said that drugs don't expand your mind, but making mental connections do (something like that.) So for me to hear from people that "you have to be high to listen to it"...I know I'm not typical, I've seen the stoners burn their brains to the Dark Side of the Moon...but that's their loss. But it just reinforces the fantasy that I was born on the wrong planet, and that it is they who are the aliens.
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 5/06, 6:28pm)


Post 30

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
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James,

I like the narrative of your musical adventure. But there is one important genre you still haven't given a full try.

Don't make Tibor, Alec, and me resort to brute force.

Garin


Post 31

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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James, your article is beautiful, as always when you write about music. I disagree with only one point. You wrote: " There are many Lanza songs that only a Derek, Barbara, Chris, Linz and me would defend ( and some that even we can't make excuses for)." There are NO Lanza songs that I can't make excuses for.


Philip, I'm very impressed with your post (#11) and the two points you made to explain the non-objective elements involved in our musical preferences.The same often is true of people with regard to literary style. A friend of mine is a lover or Jane Austen, who bores me stiff. But Austen's novels are notable for their presentation of an ordered, graspable, uncomplicated world -- and my friend had a remarkably disordered and chaotic childhood. Whereas I love literature that is stylistically complex and searching, she responded to the simplicity of the Austen world.

Linz, you are a saint. And you will know precisely why I say that.

Barbara

Post 32

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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Majesty wrote:

"Linz, you are a saint. And you will know precisely why I say that."

Actually, I have no idea. "Saint" is not something I get called very often. :-) But in the interests of not hijacking the thread & frightening the horses, there's no need to elaborate. :-)

Linz



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Post 33

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara, thank you very much. (By the way, you also were among that group I was comfortable being around at SoloC4.) For me, my literary preferences are not as strong or clear as those of your friend but in music and movies my own childhood and adolescence certainly play a role in my preferences. I was around extremely bright, hard-edged, complex, type A and competitive people. But not enough warm or likable or gentle people. So to fill my "gaps" and in accordance with my deepest values, I like simplicity, warmth and even sloppy sentimentality (think Disney movies and emotional, romantic pop music). It doesn't matter if they are grossly simple. What I need is the benevolence and the emotions, even if sometimes lowbrow or simple-minded. I like complexity and sophistication but I prefer to get it somewhat less from the arts than from non-fiction, reading philosophy, etc. (Actually that's not quite as true in movies as it is in music for me.) -- Phil

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Post 34

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 10:57pmSanction this postReply
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James,

I love YES. I’ve always been conflicted (but not concerned) about it because they are so very un-objectivist. Anderson, the singer and writer of most of the music and lyrics, openly admits (as though anyone needed to be told) that most of the lyrics mean nothing. He chooses words because they flow nicely one to the next and sound good to the music. Philosophically, the man is a nut. Calling him a mystic is a huge understatement—he’s a puffy, drifting cloud! So, reading the liner notes is not advised.

I do think they develop a great melody. And even if they come up short, I appreciate that they are always ambitious, they want to sound BIG. Awaken is one of my favorites in this regard.

The best part about YES is the technical virtuosity of the musicians and their very different preferred styles as evidenced in their solo work. Steve Howe, for example, is an incredible guitarist. His version of Vivaldi’s Concerto in D (2nd Movement) on The Steve Howe Album, is amazing. If you can find it, the whole album is good.

Rick Wakeman is the most finely (classically) trained among the group. His solo work is extensive, but sketchy. (Interestingly, he did an album with a tenor, Ramon Remedios, but that work is—intentionally from what I can make of it—unbearable.) His The Family Album and Zodiaque (with Tony Fernandez) are quite good. Unfortunately, Wakeman dealt with his issues of excess beer and bankruptcies by going full-throttle-Jesus.

Anyway, James,
I second what others have said tipping their hat to your willingness to listen to Going For The One. I’m inspired to do the same re: Lanza. Problem is, the only Lanza I know is from Beautiful Creatures. If Kate Winslet hadn’t played an angst-ridden lesbo teen maybe I could have remembered something besides her saying of him, “The world’s greatest tenor, ever!” I remember one tune went, “Be my looooooooove, for no one else can eeeeeend this yearning…” That was pretty good. (Not as good as Kate in her underwear being chased through the woods by her girlfriend, but they’re very different things.)

So, knowing that I love Awaken (and all of Going For The One,) tell me which Lanza CD to buy.

Oh, and don’t listen to RUSH.

Jon

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Post 35

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
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Linz, a saint? The world is going MAADD!!! (Actually, he wouldn't put up with the demotion.)

Phil, you added a great deal to SOLOC4. Your talk on the arts, particularly for me your remarks on the power of first seeing Michelangelo's David, perfectly demonstrated the life-enriching gift of the creative arts, and I hope it inspired everyone who hasn't explored this world to drop everything and do it now. I have always said that it isn't important to me that you fall in love with the the same art that I love; it is important, for your own soul, that you fall in love with something great. Linz' passionate fight for his music is his passionate fight for our culture is his passionate fight for Solo. It is the fight for greatness; the non-trivialization of our lives. All of us need the support for our values that great art and great battles give us.

Joe, you are a beautiful writer and show real sensitivity and perception in what you say. I, too, take drug abuse very seriously. Sergio has been in a recovery house since early January due to his addiction to a common street drug, and he will be there for several more months, if not the rest of the year. Drugs came within a hair of stealing from me the greatest treasure of my life, and I will always have to have a wary eye on them to be sure that the sword we put in their chest remains there forever. For now, every night I go to sleep, I go to sleep alone because of drugs, but the knowledge that Sergio is getting stronger each day makes this an easy burden. (By the way, thank you all for your support through this. Sergio is is doing wonderfully. Those who got to meet him at SOLOC4 I am sure can attest to that fact.)

However, the majority of people are able to handle drugs (including alcohol) successfully. I was perhaps a bit too playful with the subject in my article, and I certainly know that many people love rock music who never smoked or sniffed anything, but I had some great times in college and shortly thereafter with the occasional use of recreational drugs, as did most of my friends. I will not deny that now.

Barbara, remind me to play "This Nearly Was Mine" and "Falling in Love with Love" by Lanza for you. There is no excuse possible.

Garin, what am I forgetting? Well, whatever..thanks for the image of you, Alec and Tibor as storming Attilas.

Post 36

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 11:58pmSanction this postReply
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Jon- if you would send me your mailing address, I will do you one better than giving you a Lanza CD recommendation.

jameskilbourne@sbcglobal.net

Post 37

Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 12:08amSanction this postReply
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James - please keep up this barrage of posts. They make me laugh & cry, both out of joy.

You wrote:

"Phil, you added a great deal to SOLOC4. Your talk on the arts, particularly for me your remarks on the power of first seeing Michelangelo's David, perfectly demonstrated the life-enriching gift of the creative arts, and I hope it inspired everyone who hasn't explored this world to drop everything and do it now."

I couldn't agree more with you about Phil's contribution. I know he had reservations about SOLO before attending, & I hope they were assuaged. He was in the right place for sure. I just hope he wasn't put off by all that attention to his trichotomy! :-)

"I have always said that it isn't important to me that you fall in love with the the same art that I love; it is important, for your own soul, that you fall in love with something great. Linz' passionate fight for his music is his passionate fight for our culture is his passionate fight for Solo. It is the fight for greatness; the non-trivialization of our lives. All of us need the support for our values that great art and great battles give us."

Oh, Brother, if you only knew what oxygen those words are!!

Re the "inexcusable" Mario—those tracks you mention certainly fall under that category, & practically the entire damn Lanza on Broadway album! What *was* he thinking??!!

Speaking of Garin & forgetting things—I committed the egregious oversight of neglecting to mention him in my opening speech: a terrible injustice, given what a gem he is. I did offer to make it up to him as best I knew how, but for some reason he wasn't enthused. :-)

Linz



Post 38

Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 2:09amSanction this postReply
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First of all, great article James, thank you for giving progressive rock a try and writing your views (I saw this posted yesterday but only just had time to read through it properly).

Though I do like a lot of modern rock (as well as Beethoven, Lanza, Puccini et al) I've never listened to Yes, so I'm not really in a position to dispute your judgement. I guess, as Philip posted earlier, if a particular type of music doesn't appeal to you it doesn't appeal. You may find you don't like Rush either, and that shouldn't be a cause of disappointment to those of us who do.

Now, just to throw a complete curve ball into the discussion (as my American friends would say), Jordan said earlier that there is a Yes symphony. I've never heard that, but on a similar note there is also an absolutely brilliant Queen Symphony, based on the music of the British rock group - the group's main composer, Freddie Mercury, had definite classical/operatic sensibilities and even did an album of duets with Montserrat Caballe!

MH

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 5/07, 2:11am)


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Post 39

Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 2:40amSanction this postReply
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I approach music in a similar way to food. There are all kinds of great and different foods, and sometimes your in the mood for sweet or spicy, heavy or light -- and so on. Of course, there's a common thread that links them all. In food, it's tastiness. In music, for me, its soulfulness. Both are manifested in many ways. Linz rejects "raspiness" to the extreme of disliking Ray Charles -- something that I once believed unimaginable of a decent human being. But I love a good, raspy, seasoned voice -- drenched with experience, wisdom, grit, authenticity -- because it's one of the purest expressions of soul. A stirring scream from the likes of Joe Cocker or Tina Turner rattles my bones and sends chills up my spine. Lanza, to whom I've just been introduced, expresses soul in his own way, and I certainly feel it in the trembling uneasiness of his falsetto.

What disturbs me is that Linz groups a whole lot of radically different music under the tent of HC. But to equate a song like "Hotel California" (or "Eleanor Rigby") with any pathetic rap or recent pop song is to commit a heinous moral crime.

Alec

P.S. James, your whip-worthy omission to which Garin referred, was the blues.   


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