RoR: Forum

My hatred of rap goes beyond words, and well into the realm of dysentery grunts. But there is something incoherent about the theoretical aspect of this article. How can rap "tell life 'how it is' rather than how it should be" and " tell us gays are to be hated...and that misogyny is not just acceptable, it is to be embraced"? The latter sounds an awful lot like a "how it should be."

I just think this is sort of a knee-jerk reaction to "Naturalism," which is related to realism, which Rand actually enjoyed in various concrete forms (e.g., Sinclair Lewis). I don't see why art that tells us how it is necessarily conflicts with how it should be. I think this is an example of Objectivists slipping into the is-ought dichotomy. Often knowing how it is is essential to realizing how it should be, at least if metaphysical reality is important. Indeed, it's impossible to truly know the latter without knowing the former, and the former is not that easy to know -- hence the value to be found in illuminating realistic art. I know that I'm currently on a quest to more thoroughly discover what is, because I feel that such truths of reality are the keys to realizing the finer oughts, and the only means of achieving any oughts. Larger-than-life is wonderful, but life is pretty damn large itself!

Anyway, this has more to do with Objectivist criticism than rap, which I agree is the lowest of the low. On the one hand, I feel that the music world has hit rock bottom, yet on the other hand it seems headed in only one direction and that's down. Each floor is just another ceiling, I guess. :( Pop-music peaked in the era of 1968-1975 and the epoch of 1940-1975. Disco was its death-knell as it was the first popular music that was devoid of any sort of emotion, and it's all gone downhill since, with very few exceptions. (And those excepted artists are sort of retro-resurrections.) I suspect that when the 70s generation recovered from their turbulent, tumultuous, grotesquely introspective journeys they decided that the only way to solve their profound confusion was to avoid the depths of their soul and set a shallow barrier that only allowed them to respond to superficial feel-good therapy.

Alec

(Edited by Alec Mouhibian
on 6/21, 5:02am)

Post 21

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 5:15am

That's a very fine essay, Steven, and I'm delighted that at least two other readers here "get" it. Take a couple of deep bows, Andrew and Alec!

R. Christian Ross wrote:

Rand may have had puritanical tastes, but that certainly doesn't mean everyone ought to be forced to only appreciate the same limited set of artistic experiences.

Who said anything about forcing people to like the same things? You're way off course here. I don't look to Rand for a list of approved musical artists; if anything, she would have disapproved of several of my favourite operatic singers. And I don't despise rap because Rand would have detested it; I despise it because it's an affront to my sense of life. To suggest that this vile sound is somehow an "artistic experience" is like saying that a month in a concentration camp could be rewarding.

(Edited by Derek McGovern on 6/21, 5:31am)

Post 22

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 6:08am

"Rand may have had puritanical tastes" is rich, coming from someone who clearly has no taste at all. To defend the obscenity that is rap on the ground that it embodies "rhythm" is to display ignorance of the distinction between romantic, sophisticated pulses & jungle repetition; between ballroom dancing & drug-induced spasms; between a grunting pig & an opera singer; between romantic adult love & pedophile rape. We've seen such ignorance often enough here— but "here" is its most unlikely repository.

Linz

Post 23

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:21am

Eric:

It has been effective, not in getting people to stop listening to music, but in getting people to think about the message behind it.

Absolutely. Music has universal properties that just about everyone likes to share. If you get talking about it and listening to different things, a lot of the conflict goes away. But he's still right in part of the article about the non poseur thug groups- those guys are just pimped-out criminals that happen to do music, and most of them couldn't engineer their own asses out of a pay toilet. Fortunately the entertainment industry provides a little bit of self-purging by its survival-of-the-fittest nature. It's all you can really hope for, that it just keeps swallowing it up.

rde
Akai MCPs are for sissies.

Post 24

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:37am

Alec:

I feel that the music world has hit rock bottom, yet on the other hand it seems headed in only one direction and that's down.

Nah...there's always great musicians around. Plenty of good stuff out there.

Post 25

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:08am

Linz offers his opinion on hip-hop:

[please note: "rap" is style of presenting lyrics, it isn't a genre of music]

"Rand may have had puritanical tastes" is rich, coming from someone who clearly has no taste at all. To defend the obscenity that is rap on the ground that it embodies "rhythm" is to display ignorance of the distinction between romantic, sophisticated pulses & jungle repetition; between ballroom dancing & drug-induced spasms; between a grunting pig & an opera singer; between romantic adult love & pedophile rape. We've seen such ignorance often enough here— but "here" is its most unlikely repository."

M'eh. Obviously, I couldn't disagree more with Linz's opinion on the matter.

Needless to say, his "description" of what he calls "rap" is a gross distortion, and is as sterotyped as is humanly possible. And, btw, I didn't say anything like "rap empbodies rhythm", I said "the drums" do.

RCR

"I like operetta music of a certain kind, but I would take a funeral march in preference to 'The Blue Danube Waltz'..." (Ayn Rand)

(Edited by R. Christian Ross on 6/21, 8:56am)

Post 26

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:17am

Derek:

"Who said anything about forcing people to like the same things? You're way off course here."

Uh...this thread started with a call for Objectivists to wage a "war" against hip-hop (rap) artists. If that isn't trying to intellectually coerce, intimidate, and guilt people into listening and producing what some Objectivists like, I don't know what is.

Btw, it ain't gonna work.

RCR

Post 27

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:21am

Rich wrote:

"Akai MCPs are for sissies."

It's "MPCs", Rich. And no, they aren't; they are for the innovative, the interesting, and the brave.

:-)

Rich:

"Nah...there's always great musicians around. Plenty of good stuff out there."

I couldn't agree more.

RCR

(Edited by R. Christian Ross on 6/21, 8:32am)

Post 28

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:29am

It's uninformed to come out and say any style of music sucks. If you're going to trash music, you have to go right to a piece and the person who made it. Then, if you wish, take no prisoners.

If you do otherwise, it's very weak in terms of reference to reality. And, aside from lyrical content, it helps if you can be thorough in listening for production and technical values.

Post 29

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:47am

Thanks to all of those individuals (NEM-ers, if you will) who have risen to my defense.

My call to war was one because ghetto culture has so thoroughly permeated all culture that we have no choice but to destroy it, root and branch. I like how railing against rap somehow makes me "puritanical".

Puritanical? Let's take a look at some of the rap lyrics of the songs leading Billboard (the "Hot 100") this week:

50 Cent's "Lil Bit" (#4 hit in America):

"You really got me feelin' right.. (ya heard me)
My mama gone you can spend the night (ya heard me)
I ain't playin' I'm tryin' to fuck tonight (ya heard me)
Clothes off, face down, ass up, c'mon (haha). "

How wonderful for her that 50's "mama" is gone. How inspirational of lyrics are those! How could I have ever had such puritanical thoughts?

Let's do another.

The Game "Love it or Hate it"

"At my last show I threw away my NWA gold and
Had the whole crowd yellin "Free Yayo"
So Niggas betta get up outta mine
Fo' I creep and turn yo' projects into COLUMBINE"

Yes! Columbine! How could I be such a jerk?

For those who think I am attacking all rap, they are right. Mindless beats (like it or not, that's what it is) with monotone spoken words should not be considered music or art.

"his thread started with a call for Objectivists to wage a "war" against hip-hop (rap) artists. If that isn't trying to intellectually coerce, intimidate, and guilt people into listening and producing what some Objectivists like, I don't know what is."

INTELLECTUALLY coerce? Can you do that to someone? Or do you just have some kind of foolish notion that presenting alternative ideas of art to the Naturalistic world of rap is COERCION? This has to be one of the dumber things I have ever read. Intellectual coercion...sheesh. As for all the attitudes about "it'll never work" and "it's always been around", I think Andrew put it best, and I just have to add that that is the attitude of a sniveling coward and an evader.

Post 30

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:52am

"To defend the obscenity that is rap on the ground that it embodies "rhythm" is to display ignorance of the distinction between romantic, sophisticated pulses & jungle repetition..."

Actually, the "jungle" repitition that I have often heard Objectivists invoke as a description of what is wrong with music is sometimes rather rhythmically sophisticated.

Music is something that those "mystics" can teach us a thing or two about, and certainly they have.

Post 31

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 9:39am

Steven:

For those who think I am attacking all rap, they are right. Mindless beats (like it or not, that's what it is)

Steven, that's a broad statement that simply will not even stand up to mere technical scrutiny. You were quoting lyrics that you don't like, and of course that's fine, even though the shock value of that stuff is pretty questionable. But, I'd be curious to have you explain, using some kind of musical language, in terms of rhythm groove production, what a mindless beat is. Prince, for instance, has used rap elements for years in his production, which is considered by virtually everyone in the industry to be first class professional musical product. Does Prince suck? And, "I know it when I hear it" clearly will not an answer make.

I respectfully submit that you are not familiar with all the flavors and varieties of rap, and, in general, how it is applied (particularly its rhythmic elements like sampling, loops, and groove production) throughout the spectrum of modern music composition and recording technique.

It's obviously not to your pallette, and that's one thing. But it is not all shit, it's just not. Destroying ghetto culture sounds very Orwellian to my artistic ears.
I don't produce rap stuff, because it's not how I paint, but I know a lot of people that do, and they work their tails off. Some of it is extremely sophisticated- at least as good as tap dancing. :)

rde

Post 32

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 9:40am

Does art have to be inspirational to qualify as good art?

Post 33

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 9:48am

Rich Engle,

That was a fine post. Thanks. I've seen hiphop producers working hard to create particular sound effects. I agree that such sounds are not temperamentally suited to everyone, but neither are the best compositions of Beethoven.

I think that most of the backlash against rap music is cultural and to some degree deserved. However, I always find uninformed, one-sided criticism of a phenomenon to be counterproductive.

I patiently await Druckenmiller's criticism of The Sopranos or Desperate Housewives, of even The Godfather trilogy, or Scarface and Goodfellas. Those will be classic SOLO articles. But what Druckenmiller will fail to see is that he can understand the nuances of movies far better than he will ever understand the nuances of rap music.

Laj.

Post 34

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 9:56am

Here, let me take a crack at this again...

Use another example. Let's pick the stuff redneck bar trash listen to, just to keep things balanced, and real.

I really don't need to hear more Southern Rock, although there've been some fine bands out of the South. So much raw material available for songwriting other than Jesus, guns, Jack Daniels, and pickup trucks. And, I can't get any sympatico worked up over the damn ballads about their busted up relationships- one reason they suck at relationships is because they're sitting in the bar and drinking too much, listening to all this crap over and over again. And generally, they cheat, have a sketchy work ethic, and get in drunken brawls when there is no need to.

I say enough is enough, they are a big, tattooed boat anchor on society, and they need to be excised. And while we're at it, let's get those fucking Ford Truck commercials off the air- that guy is a total Nancy-Boy.

Next up: Arian Metal, and the homophobic sexual repression beneath it.

rde
Going back to Beethoven, because country music sucks.

Post 35

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 10:10am

Laj:
But what Druckenmiller will fail to see is that he can understand the nuances of movies far better than he will ever understand the nuances of rap music

I think it's a natural condition within the movie industry as a whole. If you don't believe me, take a look at how many Hollywood actors think that just because they're actors, they're automatically important, scary-bad musicians. You want to experience some real across-the-boards ka-ka-poo-poo, check out some of that stuff. Three words: Billy Bob Thornton . If that's not enough for you, go see Juliette Lewis' new band.

rde

(Edited by Rich Engle on 6/21, 10:12am)

Post 36

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 1:02pm

Andrew, I was being sarcastic.

I still don't see what ya'll problem is. Some rappers had absolutly nothing and now their worth millions. They're selling a product in great demand and the people are eating it up. I thought you people didn't care what a person did as long as they did it honestly?

There are a lot of gays on this board and I don't care for that but I don't say anything cause its your right to do it, period end of discussion. There isn't more of a pro-life message then selling a cd of $18 and talking on that cd about how rich you are.

Post 37

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 1:27pm

Clarence,

If you think Southern HipHop has more genuine creativity than what we play on the East and the West Coasts, you need help. Is there a better rapper than JayZ or GodSend out there?

Laj

Post 38

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 2:44pm

To suggest that this vile sound is somehow an "artistic experience" is like saying that a month in a concentration camp could be rewarding.

What, is Michelle Malkin a rap enthusiast all of a sudden?

Post 39

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 2:45pm