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Post 40

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 2:45pmSanction this postReply
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 Don't tell me Rap is  inherently evil. (And anyone who claims that it's just mindless beats has not heard OUTKAST.)
Rap as was noted, is a style of delivery. And when it's good, it can rock your world. "It's in the way that you use it." I am not a big fan of rap myself, but have experience with it, and even wrote one myself for the Philadelphia 76's when they went up against the Lakers a few years ago:

 It's been a long time since we rolled down Broad Street,
But it's time to get back on our feet
Yeah, it's been a long time, long time coming
But the Sixers are the team to beat now

Some said we couldn't do it
Pat (Croce) said "just do it now"
Sixers gonna work it out
Someday,Somehow
Overcome adversity
Showing true diversity
Building up velocity
Right here, Right now

(Rocky Theme sample)

Yo, check out these guys tearing down the fences
Got the fans jamming, lost their senses
Check out this guy's offense and defense
Stealing and slamming,
keep em' in suspense

Is this our team that's taking 'em for a ride?
Is this out team taking down the other side?
Is this our team that's living the dream?
Is this our team that's making us scream:

(chorus)

"Come one and all,
Come fill the hall
and get up on your feet now,
Come on an all
answer the call
and get up out your seats now

Take the ball and fake the ball
and move from side to side now
Fake the ball and shake the ball
and take em for a ride now"

Inside outside,
take it to the far side
Oh, No! Let's Go!
Take it back to our side!
Go on better scram punk
Gonna make a slam dunk
Gonna take a big chunk
Sixers bringing home the funk

Look around, here's what I found
Got it on the rebound
Now our luck is turning 'round
Sixers flying off the ground
On with the show, picking up a free throw
feel adrenaline flow, GO SIXERS GO!

(chorus)

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 6/21, 2:46pm)

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 6/21, 2:55pm)


Post 41

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 5:10pmSanction this postReply
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I like Debbie Harry and Blondie's "Rapture" and Carol Burnett and Julie Andrews' "Mama's Rap."

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Post 42

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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One of the first songs in The Music Man is a rap.

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Post 43

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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When someone makes a generalization of the following kind: "rap [or naturalism] [or modern art] is bad" and then gives his reasons, he is not necessarily claiming there are no exceptions.

So why do we have to have dozens of post beating to death these silly arguments: "What about Prince?" [rap] "What about Sinclair Lewis?" [naturalism] followed by semantic debates which seek to define the counter-example either in or outside of the category.

When I read a general statement about a category such as the above, I grant that I could come up with an exception or two.

But I don't want to waste time and posts pedantically arguing and nit-picking them to death, when the general or overall statement is correct . . . and one should have recognized that in the first place.

Jeez!

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Post 44

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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When someone makes a generalization of the following kind: "rap [or naturalism] [or modern art] is bad" and then gives his reasons, he is not necessarily claiming there are no exceptions. So why do we have to have dozens of post beating to death these silly arguments: "What about Prince?" [rap] "What about Sinclair Lewis?" [naturalism] followed by semantic debates which seek to define the counter-example either in or outside of the category.


Because, Phil, if there are enough exceptions to any given generalization, that generalization is wrong. And, in addition, when that generalization is that a particular genre of art is "anti-civilization, anti-success, and anti-life, and it is time Objectivists started waging philosophical war with these appalling ideas," it is even more important that that generalization be right. And, furthermore, if someone claims that something "almost always consists of little more than. . ." it seems to me appropriate to question whether or not it in fact "almost always consists" of what it's accused of "almost always" consisting of.


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Post 45

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with original article in that the ideas and sense-of-life put forth by "gangsta" rap (a specific subset of hip hop) is generally nihilistic and repulsive.  The fact is that words like "thug" and "pimp" are now commonplace in the mainstream, and they now garner a positive connotation in most cases.  Doesn't that bother anyone?? For example, I live in a very diverse neighborhood in the city of Chicago, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard kids - barely older than toddlers - reciting rap lyrics about bitches and hoes, thugs and pimps, etc.  They do this in the presence of their elders, who act is if nothing is wrong with that!! Yes, I realize in most cases the parents (who are usually teenagers) are usually to blame for tolerating those influences, but given that these artists receive mainstream exposure and acclaim, it should come as no surprise. 

Yes, growing up in the ghetto is a tremendous challenge.  Yes, racism still exists and many blacks get the short end of the stick on a lot of things.  But weren't black Americans objectively under far more oppression 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago, and didn't their culture instead produce (and revere) Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Dizzie Gillespie etc?  

I think this article is somewhat mistaken in that it doesn't distinguish between the different forms of rap music, but gives a blanket condemnation of a vocal technique.  However, its criticisms of the "thug" culture in general are well founded.    That said, many reputable classical music elites of the early 1900's dismissed early New Orleans style jazz music as the raucous musings of displaced savages, and jazz evolved on to become a rich and complex artform.  It would be foolish to suggest that in the future, the techniques being employed in hip hop (samples, loops, dj's etc) will never one be applied with incredible skill and depth by an artist who who truly understands the nuances of melody, harmony and rhythm. 


Post 46

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 9:56pmSanction this postReply
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Anthony, your post is not responsive to mine because your second and third points (which start with "in addition" and "furthermore") are not on the one very specific point I raised. And your first point " if there are enough exceptions..." is not apropos either, because then if there were an overwhelming number of them THEY WOULD NOT BE EXCEPTIONS.

The only proper response you could make would be to acknowledge my wider epistemological point, but then to dispute it in this case, by saying there are so many really good rap songs or artists that they are not longer exceptions. Is that your argument? If so, then just say so and make a strong case for it, instead of trying to debate me on elementary logic or trying to redefine terms like this: "any spoken lyrics to a beat can be called rap" [#39] which allows anything ever done by any singer to be rap.



Post 47

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 10:36pmSanction this postReply
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 So why do we have to have dozens of post beating to death these silly arguments: "What about Prince?" [rap] "What about Sinclair Lewis?" [naturalism]

So you are referring to my post, Phil? Well, incoherence in argumentation won't help any cause, and I was pointing out a blatant incoherence in the last paragraph of this article, which strikes me as typical of Objectivists' sloppiness on the matter of art when they cavalierly refer to Naturalism. And my argument was simply not in the form of a "what about?" It was about the theory itself.

Alec


Post 48

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 10:52pmSanction this postReply
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Anthony Gregory's contention that Rock Island, the brilliant opening scene in Meredith Wilson's The Music Man is rap is the the most obscene statement I've read in this thread.

Post 49

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
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Rich,

Yes, there are *some* good musicians who emerged after 1975. There is Rich Engle, Lance Moore, and Joe Maurone. One level down, there's Roberty Cray, Joe Louis Walker, Johnny Lang, Diana Krall, Diane Reeves, Tinsley Ellis, Dave Alvin, Los Lobos, Kid Ramos, Shemekia Copeland. There *was* Stevie Ray Vaughan, and Tina Turner's illustrious solo career began after 1980. There might even be a few who've slipped my mind. Other than that, pretty much, all the great musicians who are around today come from the old golden era. Many of them are still doing great work and performing wonderfully; I'm getting as much out of it as I can, attending countless concerts each year. But the fact remains that they will all be dead soon and my soul will be lonesome.

Alec

Post 50

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 11:25pmSanction this postReply
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Rick Giles responds in Post 19 by saying, "Justin, havn't you learned by now that all things are permeated by philosophical premise?"

But that was the point I was getting at. People go to the club for the sake of enjoying themselves, to be happy. Doesn't the ARI call that man's "moral purpose of his life"?

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Post 51

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 12:31amSanction this postReply
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Anthony, your post is not responsive to mine because your second and third points (which start with "in addition" and "furthermore") are not on the one very specific point I raised. And your first point " if there are enough exceptions..." is not apropos either, because then if there were an overwhelming number of them THEY WOULD NOT BE EXCEPTIONS.


If a generalization is advanced that has too many exceptions to be valid, it is still a generalization, just an invalid one. The exceptions are still exceptions—to a bad generalization.

The only proper response you could make would be to acknowledge my wider epistemological point, but then to dispute it in this case, by saying there are so many really good rap songs or artists that they are not longer exceptions.


Sorry that I failed to make the only proper response!

Is that your argument? If so, then just say so and make a strong case for it, instead of trying to debate me on elementary logic or trying to redefine terms like this: "any spoken lyrics to a beat can be called rap" [#39] which allows anything ever done by any singer to be rap.


Spoken, as opposed to sung. There is a difference.


Post 52

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 12:33amSanction this postReply
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Anthony Gregory's contention that Rock Island, the brilliant opening scene in Meredith Wilson's The Music Man is rap is the the most obscene statement I've read in this thread.


I didn't say that. I don't mean the very first song. Which is the one in which the male chorus quartet or quintet is speaking rhythmically on the train?

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Post 53

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 1:04amSanction this postReply
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Hot air hot air hot air....told ya. Should be we formulate an attack and contribute something good to the world, but no. Pipe hot air around the conference and break into fights about whose music is better than whose. Yeesh....

Justin,
Any club I've ever attended is about having a good time, not a philosophical "anti-life" treatise.

"Justin, havn't you learned by now that all things are permeated by philosophical premise?"

But that was the point I was getting at. People go to the club for the sake of enjoying themselves, to be happy.
What I said has missed its mark. Yes, there are motives behind human action but that is not what I mean by my remark.

My proposition is that nothing which is human is without moral consequence. Every line on your face, every gesture, every choice, every response, every penstroke, every move you make tells a secret about your character.

People go to these clubs and it makes them happy, but happiness is not an alibi. Do you see?

Any given [club] 'scene' nestles implicit, sometimes explicit, philosophical principles and standards. Values. Indeed, there is more truth to be seen in such records than in the records of a culture's deeds or its words- in my view at least. These nestled judgements about the world are to be evaluated and so is your spirit's response to them.

Happiness is not exempt for being happiness, it too is something to be weighed.


Post 54

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 7:37amSanction this postReply
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Rick:

Happiness is not exempt for being happiness, it too is something to be weighed

I might jump into that one if it were another day, but I think I get your drift for current purposes.

Moving on past what Rick said, it's always interesting for me to see how music threads on non-music forums end up. I think they come out a lot differently than many other topics.

My point from the beginning is that it's never a good idea to propose attacking some kind of art, even if it's ghetto thug backwash, or jars full of piss with crosses in them.

In the end, that kind of stuff loses potency- it bleeds out, and looks kitsch. I thought I knew what kind of stuff he was talking about in the article, but I found the examples he provided pretty underwhelming. There's all kinds of stupid lyrics- I don't care if they're talking about asses and gats or if it's that stupid "Rodeo Song."

There is a great disadvantage to only knowing how to create subjective art, and most of these guys don't even know about the other kind, mainly because they don't know how to live right.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 6/22, 7:41am)


Post 55

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

"Happiness is not exempt for being happiness, it too is something to be weighed."

Well put.

Post 56

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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I ask the people who criticize gangster rap once more - where are your ten page criticisms of movies like Scarface, The Godfather trilogy and Goodfellas?

Diversity is a part and parcel of the spice of life.  Some things are fair entertainment in their proper context. Even gangster rap is one of them in its proper context.  Aspects of the culture are deserving of criticism when excessive, but again, let's keep some perspective.

I personally wanted to have fun when my parents travelled when I was younger.

Laj.


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Post 57

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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Nothing in gangster rap should be entertaining or amusing, and, M. Ogunshola, never have I held my tongue about any movie or television program (my vitirol is strong for the Sopranos in particular, but all Mafia movies in general) that glorifies violence and "gang" life. Never. However, I chose to criticize gangster rap. What are you trying to imply by stating a fact that I haven't written something? There are plenty of things I am sure that you haven't written, but what difference does that make?

M. Engle, I provided examples from Billboard's Top Songs of the Week. The fact that two songs with lyrics like that are 2 of the most popular 20 songs in America is a sad statement. If you would like, I could provide much, much more (I am more throughly acquainted with rap than your sensibilities would like you to believe, I am not some cranky guy who's heard one rap album and declared the whole genre worthless). I especially find your musical elitism to be quite amusing. Effectively, you say "not all of it's bad" even though I grew up with the stuff and HAVE heard that all of what is popular is, indeed, glorified ghetto music and racist, misogynistic filth. Anthony Gregory can provide little underground indie rap ensembles all he likes that barely anyone's ever heard of except for a few snobby music friends, but the simple fact is that what is popular glorifies thug culture. End of statement.

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Post 58

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
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I don't believe any of the uninformed smears against hip-hop that have been posted here merit any further comment, however, as a final thought, I would like to post the following rap lyrics.

From Blackalicious' "Passion" (appearing on the album *Blazing Arrow*)

Passion
The will to win, the spark within
Passion
The strength within the hearts of men
Passion
The drive to press, to strive for best, to rise
You've just arrived the quest is driven through
Passion
To play through pain and love the game
Passion
To break the chain and blaze the flame
Passion
The fight for rights to love your life, to rise
You've just arrived the quest is driven through
Passion


From Blackalicious' "First in Flight" (appearing on the album *Blazing Aarow*)

FREE! Like a bird out in the wind in the night
Like a 747 to LA that's in flight
FREE! Like a garden flourishing in the wind
Like a student bout to do it when he's graduatin
FREE! From any of the energy perception
Can never be defined create the definition within
FREE! Just lovin life itself and never pretend to be
Anything other than the man I was meant to be
Travel through time and get a glimpse of the centuries

RISE! Like the sun up at the crack of the dawn
Like a wakin child in the morning stretchin and yawnin
RISE! Like an infant being held in the light
Like the smoke from an incense when it's ignited
RISE! If you're sleepin won't you open your eyes again
The greatest high be that natural high within
No need to force the progression just ride the wind
You'll know the answer to the where and why and when
If you keep workin for your search you will find the end
Though at the end you find it only begins again
See at the end you'll see it only begins again
And everything you learn you're only rememberin

Let your mind and your soul be free
Work to shine meet your goal believe
Spread that kind of L-O-V-E
Take some time off the lonely

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Post 59

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
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Steven thinks I went highbrow on him:

I especially find your musical elitism to be quite amusing


What the heck are you talking about? Yeah, I have strong professional credentials as far as the music business goes, and I called you on some rookie errors involving technical and business points that you probably knew you were making anyway. I don't go around whipping out my chops because I think it makes me look cool, or pumps me up. If your goal is to be a versatile, eclectic musician, you cannot afford elitism.  

I also told you its not nice to go on about "eliminating" like you did- no one died and made any of us Elvis, and it pisses on all of us who just spent lots of money on studio equipment. Only Elvis had the right to do things like that. Your evaluation fell short, and I didn't even find that elitist -it just seemed kind of mean and counterproductive. Your proposed solution, on the other hand, was Machiavellian, if you take out the possibility of hitting the streets and trying to get them to check out some Elliot Carter, or maybe Aaron Copland. Note: As odd of picks as those two might be, it would still be more prudent than, say a Billy Bob Thornton or Juliette Lewis CD-they might really kick your ass over those. With Carter and Copland, they might show pity and let you keep your radio, just out of being disoriented by the whole experience.

And I still don't see where you are getting such a major ooh-ah factor out of those lyrics- that's standard issue stuff, as goofy and caricture-like as they are. Some of these guys are writing like that just for the purpose of being able to buy a full set of gold teeth. I think they're funny. I wish they would stop doing all the bad things they do to themselves, each other, and other people, but that goofy-ass music really isn't where the problems are sitting. That stuff is about doing a hustle for gold teeth, and such.

rde
Always there to help plug in cords.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 6/22, 10:40am)

(Edited by Rich Engle on 6/22, 10:41am)


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