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Post 40

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 10:39pmSanction this postReply
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Luke, I may have been a bit too curt with you earlier. I apologize.

Post 41

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 11:21pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

This is interesting. The example of that "invisible unicorn looking over my shoulder" comes from Nathaniel Branden's answer to a question, in Boston, about a Deist concept of God, which does not have the internal contradictions of the Christian concept. NB's answer amounted to "Soft Atheism." Was Rand herself ever asked about Deism? Or about Maimonides' concept of Tzimtzum, that is, of God limiting his own power by creating a world with specific physical laws by which His own power was then limited?

Post 42

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 7:12amSanction this postReply
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Adam, a brief comment on your post #41 (and I hope I am not dragging your comments out of context),

"Maimonides' concept of Tzimtzum, that is, of God limiting his own power by creating a world with specific physical laws by which His own power was then limited."
If a Creator exists, He indeed must be self-limiting His power over the universe: otherwise, we would not have the blessing of free will. That would be fully compatible with His omnipotence: He choose to build and sustain --so to speak-- the world in the way we experience it.
Let me lay an analogy: the fact that I actually choose to drink a glass of water for lunch does not necessarily imply that I could not drink a glass of beer. I chose it.

Best wishes,

Joel Català
(Edited by Joel Català on 7/13, 7:35am)


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Post 43

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 8:10amSanction this postReply
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Funny how even otherwise rational, balanced atheists lose their social skills when you discuss the hottest of hot subjects:

Mike E: I won't fuck it up with foolish crap like "god". I don't care how many little shit's like you don't like it
 
Your lack of manners confuses me- did I insult you in some way?  Your tone is  very angry- I apologize if you think I laid judgment on you.

It's not a matter of whether I "like it" or not. Why would that matter? It is your right, your thoughts are your thoughts. When you express yourself like you did, all it does is show that you feel a need to protect yourself, even where there was no provocation.  

Please also allow me to remind you that I have no quarrel with atheists. My quarrel lies with anyone who lays an unprovoked attack on another's spiritual or philosophical makeup.  I will quarrel equally when I see a snotty, highbrow atheist accusing someone of having no mind of their own or a Right Wing Fundamentalist tell me that I am contributing to a downward moral spiral. And I will quarrel with everything in between those two places.

I've got news for you, Michael- that kind of attitude isn't indigenous to any movement, philosophy, or religion- it's just a matter of how few you will be fortunate enough to not run into, if you get my drift.  How the organization handles the churn is what tells.

rde


Post 44

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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Erik and Rich,

I am working from a position that the human mind is the agent that created the entire notion of "God".  Any new ideas that evolve will also be the work of the human mind. No matter what your idea of  "God", it is an IDEA.  A product of your OWN mind.  I ask my question again.

Why do you need to acknowledge GOD as something greater than, or beyond  yourself?

I am asking this in all sincerity; as I was before.   Sharon

Post 45

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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Michael: Yes. I read a news article some time back about the average persons understanding of science. Seems about half of the people questioned missed the question "which is faster, the speed of light, or the speed of sound." I choked on my coffee.
 
This isn't ever really news, though, is it? 

The next things that happen in intellectual forums after throwing one of these on the table is rarely interesting or different. There can be some use in a ruthless exploration of the potential motivations behind the throwdown itself. In the end, I bank on ground zero being a self-esteem issue.

I get as annoyed by dumbasses as the next guy, but I see no use in wollering around in elitism. And that's really what is going down most of the time.  




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Post 46

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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I sympathize with any christians posting here because every year I have to put up with dismissal of the idea of Santa.

How do they KNOW there isnt a Santa? Have these armchair theorists ever even BEEN to the north pole?

No one here is going to poke fun at my beliefs, and thats a good thing. My beliefs, after all, are on an equal footing with the various views expressed here on the God question. I thank you all for taking me seriously.

I am willing to start an Objectivist Santa club, if anyone else wishes to join.


Post 47

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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Sharon:
I am working from a position that the human mind is the agent that created the entire notion of "God".  Any new ideas that evolve will also be the work of the human mind. No matter what your idea of  "God", it is an IDEA.  A product of your OWN mind.  I ask my question again.

Why do you need to acknowledge GOD as something greater than, or beyond  yourself?

I am asking this in all sincerity; as I was before.   Sharon

 
I guess where you are going with this would run along the line of validating concepts. We do acknowledge a few things about concepts, and experiences, one being that they are stored, and have a great deal of power over our actions. Another is that experiences can revisit us in a more intense way than they originally did (such as being even angrier about a situation now than you were). The idea of abstract concepts having their own power is treated differently by many philosophies. Witness where things boil down to- currently, there is yet another long-term debate going on regarding determinism vs. volition (with a number of other flavors thrown in) The basic party line in Objectivism would be that since we cannot validate God (no big flashy appearances or performances available), the concept of God must be rejected, as it is is not measurable in reality. It is further supported by generalized statements attempting to attribute where the belief came from- nature/nurture stuff. This is why you see some of the replies that have appeared here, which make blanket assumptions that those who speak in religious concepts are victims of conditioning, fear, upbringing, and so on- regardless of the fact that these claims cannot be substantiated, other than by similar-story allegories. It's just pigeonholing.

The question you asked is a little couched and loaded. For one thing, you assume "need".  The big answer to the whole question is "I don't." The more interesting part of the question is the part about acknowledging God as something greater, or beyond myself. In my case, I do not acknowledge that, because I do not view God as a separate entity, a guy in the sky, or anything like that. Looking at the Taoist view is helpful- it is about one-ness. So, yes, in that respect it makes me a non-Deist. But, if I am talking about things with a Deist, I am likely not going to have much problem (assuming they are not a fundamentalist) adjusting to their individual religious orientation. The fact that they experience religion through a Deity model does not affect me, anymore so than if my neighbor drives an SUV or a Mustang. Instead of asking them if they believe in Santa Claus too, I will generally ask them things about the origins of their belief. If they are Christian, I might be well-equipped enough to take them back through quite a few iterations of their Deity. 

If you look at Hinduism carefully, I think it's possible to see how its practicioners normally view their Gods as represenatational symbols. That is one particularly good example.

There are those that view the many types of varieties of religious experience as cumbersome, unnecessary constructs, at best. On the other hand, there are those who experience an enriched, amplified way of living from them. The point is to have it if it benefits you, and to not have it if it doesn't. In either situation, question the purpose of generalized attacks on those with opposing views. Attacks are attacks, no persuasion has any true moral, pro-human purpose in doing so.  

   





(Edited by Rich Engle on 7/13, 9:52am)

(Edited by Rich Engle on 7/13, 9:54am)


Post 48

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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Steve: I am willing to start an Objectivist Santa club, if anyone else wishes to join.
 
Not me. I'm too busy with Snotty Objectivist Thinly Veiled Insult Club- they keep arguing, and laughing at their own jokes, which are kind of lame.  






Post 49

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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Erik, I'm sorry about coming off so harsh. Here is a more civil, yet cold response:

Erik, your method of verifying something as true is severely flawed. The following things are not solid forms of evidence:
1. Another person's witness.
2. Lack of knowledge of how reality works.
3. Things appearing to have been created by an intelligent being.

#1 depends on the reliability of the witness and the plausibility of their claim.
#2 isn't evidence, its a lack of.
#3 You are falling back to #2, and then jumping to conclusions.

Post 50

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
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Erik,

Unlike Dean, I'm staying in the Thinly Veiled Insult Club. Your claims are ridiculous and I won't pussyfoot around that because it might hurt your feelings or insult your beliefs. This is one topic I have little patience for and I'm more than willing to use my claws.

Sarah

Post 51

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
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One should only use weapons when threatened or provoked. It doesn't matter who the fuck you think you are.

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Post 52

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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Rich,

Some people live their lives under the premise that a God exists. They use this God to create their morality and goals. This has vast implications on how they live their lives. Unfortunately, in many circumstances the morality and goals that result from the premise "God exists" conflict with my goals. I don't like that.

If you base your decisions on "God exists", I fear what kind of decisions you will make, because your decisions are based on faith instead of reason and reality. Hence, I have reason to try to convince people that it would be best for them not to live under the premise "God exists".

Post 53

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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I mustered all the civility I could in my first post to Erik, then he came at me with tissue-paper arguments. My blood pressure was threatening to rise and so I responded appropriately.

Sarah

Post 54

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Dean, you captured my own concerns well.  Sanction!

Post 55

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 11:10amSanction this postReply
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Perhaps the individuals here who are either believers and/or God's Advocates can, rather than becoming angry and personal (understanding that there are others who need to behave...seriously, guys, tone it down) please give us a well-reasoned, logical argument for God.

To begin, arguing that "because we don't know and can NEVER know" is not a good argument. It is almost Cartesian in the sense that Descartes postulated this same theory when he said that an invisible, all-powerful demon could be clouding his senses, hence his pure Rationalism. However, you see the point. Without any form of evidence, there is no reason to believe in X. M. Engle, you may think that the Santa Claus argument point was an "insult" or mean-spirited, but it rings true: there is no reason to suggest that a theoretical belief in a being who no one has seen and for whose existence no evidence has been presented is any less or more valid than any other of the same. There's the same evidence for Santa and God, period.

An argument from "complexity" does not fly either. Just because something is complex (like the human body) and never ceases to amaze us does not mean it was created or designed.

Furthermore, Ms. Branden demonstrated succinctly the way that an all-powerful and all-knowing god is a logical impossibility. Of course, the god postulated by M. Reed is an interesting concept and one that, of course, would have to be the "god" that existed, if one did exist at all. Again, however, no evidence for the existence of God, leprechauns, Santa etc.

PS-Sorry, but ID is simply Creationism in "scientific" clothing.



Post 56

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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Dean- If you base your decisions on "God exists", I fear what kind of decisions you will make, because your decisions are based on faith instead of reason and reality. Hence, I have reason to try to convince people that it would be best for them not to live under the premise "God exists".
 
Unfortunately, it is not always so simple. My religious consciousness is not based on faith. I never understood how that whole setup works. You are talking about a basic situation, like what has been used to explain religion to children. Working on faith because somebody showed you something that looks pretty damn nebulous in the first place makes for lean dining. So, in simple terms, where does it come from? That is a huge subject that probably does not interest you. If it does, maybe read what people like William James have said about it. Please bear in mind that I am not a Christian, although I agree with the teachings of Jesus, in their un-fucked-with form, as I do with those of many other figures. I am one of those people that had what surely can be called a series of mystical experiences, and it left me forever changed on a very deep level. It had nothing to do with smoke, mirrors, apparitions, or any kind of pathology or psychological episode. All I will say about it is that it profoundly changed how I connect to existence, and how it works on the whole is better, for me, and anyone I come in contact with. If you wish to question my rationality, or general sanity, or question my ability to operate in society, I cannot control that behavior, only my own. There are many types of conversions, and I question your knowledge of what conversion is, its overall range, and the various situations under which it occurs.  

As to your conviction that you "have reason" (which I would assume righteously involves serving various areas of your self-interest, of course) to convince people that it would be best for them to not have an individual religious consciousness, but instead that atheism is the only logical, credible choice., that is no different in the end than the actions of any religious conversionist. Not only is it ends justify the means thinking, but you are playing in an area of individual psychology that very few people, if any, should be playing with. In the end, you are stepping over other peoples' lines, and a lot of the time you will not really know what you are doing with them. It is a very good practice to point out the virtues and clarity that reason brings, but I seriously question most peoples' qualifications (and their self-honesty as to true motives) when it comes to manipulating someone else's core- it is enough to attempt sufficient understanding of one's own.


Post 57

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, and just for the record... :)

Intelligent design is absolutely a wolf in sheep's clothing. Intelligent Design is a very distilled, user friendly kind of reflection of certain strains of religious thought, but I don't know any decent theologian that even talks like that. For pragmatic purposes, ID is a strategy that the Fundamentalist nimrods are bone-smuggling in. And it's working REEEEL GOOOD, too. It is absolutely religion, and the only religion that should be taught in schools is if you happen to sign up for world religions as an elective social studies class. But see, these people don't like THAT either. Religious thought outside of fundamentalism is every bit as dangerous to these people as science.

If you've ever seen how they organize up and go into a school system it's pathetic. Talk about pulling the string in front of the cat. Hoo-Wee. Goddamn depressing.


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Post 58

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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What a ridiculous tangent has developed on this thread.

 

By this time it should be obvious to all that even the most intelligent and otherwise rational of men often hold on to some form of contradictory or absurd belief; and this fact is not the exception, but far closer to the rule. This is as true of Objectivist as anyone else. Whether it's some watered-down form of theism, anarcho-libertarianism, conspiracy theorizing, or the equating of a Jackson Pollock painting to one by Vermeer, it's all born of one of three possible causes: cultural/psychological conditioning, honest ignorance or purposeful evasion.

 

If you suspect cultural/psychological conditioning or honest ignorance, then a short point by point elucidation of your reasoning should quickly suffice. Lead the horse to water, and then leave him the hell alone - because you can't make him drink. If on the other hand you suspect purposeful evasion, in that the person already knows better but wants or needs to maintain his position; at that point the proper response is contempt. Not contempt for the person as a whole, that is rarely warranted, but contempt for that aspect of his thinking (or better stated, his rationalizing).

 

Now, in the case of an Objecti-Theist, honest ignorance is probably not the case; therefore the proper course of action in dealing with these types, on this subject, should be clear enough. A 'soft tone' or 'kid gloves' with an Objecti-Theist is playing with fire. Theism, even in its mildest form, is wholly antithetical to the fundamentals of Objectivist philosophy; in any compromise between Objectivism and Theism, only Objectivism will lose. In regards to the irrationality of mysticism, Objectivism is most definitly a ‘closed system’ on this topic.

 

The topic of atheism when discussed with a non-objectivist takes on a different dimension. An educated person (much less an Objectivist) should not entertain to engage at length in so childish a debate as the existence of God? In my opinion, this does far more harm than good. It will matter little that as an exercise in debate skills, you may win the verbal exchange. Almost invariably this will be the case, but you will have lost the war for the sake of winning a battle: for you have granted the person making an arbitrary assertion an equivalent status as the man basing his thinking on empirical evidence and objective proof. 

 

Unlike the Objecti-Theist however, this persons assertion of a deity should not be treated with contempt or derision. If the person is receptive to Objectivist philosophy to some degree, then a pounding away on this single subject will only act to sabotage your efforts. This is not to say that you run away from or evade the topic, but it is to say that you should guard against getting caught up in a single issue debate that they can so easily mistake for an attack at the very core of their being. Let me put it this way, the God/atheism debate is perhaps the single worse starting point for an objectivist seeking to influence the culture.

 

Atheism, standing on its own - argued solely from science, will usually not have a positive influence on the culture; and to the degree that it does influence the culture, the deposed mysticism will merely reinvent itself in some other guise. Widespread erosion of mysticism will only come about as a result of the ascendancy of a new and vibrant philosophical change within the culture. Only as a mere corollary to a positive philosophy of life, will atheism assume its proper place as a concept: i.e. a conclusion that is so obvious, that argument is consisdered redundant or ridiculous.  

 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 7/13, 2:00pm)


Post 59

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
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Steve Zarwulkoff,

I, for one, do not believe in Santa. He is a pure fraud and those who believe in him are evil subhuman scum who should be wiped off the face of the earth.

The Easter Bunny is THE ONLY TRUE WAY. Words simply cannot convey the spiritual raptures of Easter Bunnydom.

I will pray for your poor pathetic misguided soul to see the light.

Michael


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