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Post 180

Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

Bonk right back at you.

Michael


Post 181

Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:53pmSanction this postReply
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"So, Phil: I won, right?" [Jon]

Hang in there, dude.

Post 182

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 12:13amSanction this postReply
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So. Phil. I won! Right? Pleese! If I don't win that's it for my tenuous and fragil (sic) self-esteem! For my pseudo s.e. too. There won't be anything left of it (or me?). Oh, woe!

--Brant


SOB!

(Edited by Brant Gaede on 8/29, 12:16am)


Post 183

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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Brant,

No, no. Itís Phil Iím worried about. If someone doesnít solve his riddle, heíll lose faith in Solo and all fellow objectivists.

Post 184

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:46amSanction this postReply
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"If I don't win that's it for my tenuous and fragil (sic) self-esteem!"

I was going to say something, but I just exercised superhuman self-control.

"If someone doesnít solve his riddle, heíll lose faith in Solo and all fellow objectivists."

Ouch. It hurts when u bite your tongue hard twice in the same place.

Post 185

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
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Maybe I misunderstood, I thought Brant was laughing at me. So I bit *my* tongue and turned it against you, Phil!

Now tell us what you had in mind.

Tell us.

Post 186

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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I can just see Jon on a bus doing a crossword puzzle - lol...[on the other hand, cannot!]

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Post 187

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Itís that I hate riddles, usually reject the legitimacy of the solution.

For example, if Phil comes back and says itís that each quoteís word count sums to a prime number, Iíll become violent.

Jon
(Edited by Jon Letendre
on 8/29, 9:21am)


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Post 188

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

I'm glad to know we're on the same page.  I do recognize that psychology has made useful contributions to our knowledge of the mind.  My concern lies with unscientific practices labeled as therapies, which are at best nothing but good counsel (which is an art, not a science) and at worst harmful, such as false memory syndrome.

Glenn,

As a layman there is nothing I can say that you should take as definitive regarding the alleged recovery by psychologists of repressed memories of trauma.  At most I can pique your curiosity to doubt something you may have previously taken as a given.  I pointed you in a direction if you want to investigate the quackery of repressed memory recovery and the very real false memory syndrome its practitioners induce in some patients.  I'm not interested in doing more.

On a final note, I said nothing about the direct repression of trauma being false.  Everytime you hold back an undesirable emotion caused by a trauma, that's repression.  For the most part, that's healthy.  But there's a world of difference between repressing emotions to put a trauma behind yourself and repressing a memory of that trauma to the point of amnesia.  If the latter ever happens, it would be extraordinary.  I don't think you can find anywhere an independently verified instance of it.

Michael,

We disagree about Branden's misuse of the word "hero" and the merit of his profession.  That's strikes me as an odd thing to pick a fight over.  I'm not playing.  However, I will leave this dust-up between us here in this thread.  As far as I'm concerned, you have a clean slate with me elsewhere.

Andy


Post 189

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:38amSanction this postReply
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Andy,

(sigh)

I would have preferred another insult to a complete sidestep. The fight is not over the disagreement on hero or Branden's field. We can disagree, even passionately.

The fight is over respect. You treat others with disrespect if you wish.

Not me.

Michael

Post 190

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

(Deleted upon the advice of my therapist.)

Andy

(Edited by Andy Postema on 8/29, 11:39am)


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Post 191

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Andy,

I am  not an ass. You owe me no respect if you do not wish to give it - so you are free to call me an ass if you like. You are free to bear the consequences, also.

On the other hand, I am not obliged to engage you further because I demand respect for that. Mutual respect is the basis of all my discussions. You do not wish to provide it.

So as I said before, "Fuck you."

I will not post to you any longer on any issue, nor comment on your views.

Michael

Post 192

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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I will not post to you any longer on any issue, nor comment on your views.
That's unfortunate, Michael, but there's nothing I can do change your feelings.

Andy


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Post 193

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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Talk about going away for a day...

To set the record straight: Adam, I barely took notice of your Jewish heritage, and only recall that now. I'm suprised you didn't bring your upset to my attention sooner than now. I paid virtually no attention to the discussion regarding the Talmud, mainly because I was familiar with the situation, and didn't have any interest in discussing it. I absolutely was not attempting to tell a Jewish person they were acting like a Nazi. I quite frankly wasn't even thinking of Judaism, but of how people discredit others within organizations or movements. I could've just as easily used another phrase, and I guess I should have. I am sorry for choosing the phrase I did, as it allowed the possibility that I might be taken for an anti-Semite, which I am not, nor ever been- the fact is that I operate very proactively on the far opposite side of the spectrum. Again, I am sorry that I wrote in a way that forced you to consider the possibility that your heritage was being maligned.

Best Regards,
rde
Hindsight is overrated.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/29, 2:14pm)


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Post 194

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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Here's the kinder, gentler version:

Adam stokes the rumor mill by bringing up the possibility that NB will even treat clients who are political activists holding different ideologies.

"I have encountered reports of would-be psychotherapy clients in all 3 categories in the memoirs of psychotherapists. The third category - a client seeking to become a more effective political activist, for causes that an Objectivist would condemn - is very, very common; it accounts for a substantial fraction of actual psychotherapy clients in California. I would not be at all surprised if Nathaniel Branden had actually "worked" with the latter."
 
Possible hypotheses:
1.  NB doesn't know any better. Maybe he needs to do a better job screening out "undesirables", regardless of any psychic pain they may be suffering. Else, he has run the ancillary risk of exposing himself to corruption, I say!

2.  NB is actively undermining Objectivism by helping  potentially opposing activists run faster and jump higher. Reasons unknown. Clearly, he's up to no good. I have reports from a friend who said he could''ve sworn he saw Branden tooling around in his Volvo on Rodeo Drive the other day, wearing one of those cute organge Peace Frogs shirts, and sporting a Greenpeace bumper sticker. What's next? Pat Robertson offering a Branden-licensed sentence completion course? Fuck!

3. NB doesn't give a shit about his clients' politics- he is acting as a psychotherapist, which means dealing with clients, not political parties.
 
Questions:

1. If it is true, what of it? The implication is clearly that, somehow, this would be wrong.  I know of no ethical precedent for that anywhere in the medical or psychology professions. The standards and practices are pretty straightforward, including those which address situatons involving crime and criminals.    

2. What was the actual purpose behind making the statement? What was the purpose of tying unsubstantiated  hearsay ("reports", in this case) with a  freshly-birthed rumour (this is a main way that rumours are born)  that you go on to manufacture on the spot ? Doesn't such a combination of "A" being unsubstantiated hearsay coupled with "B" being rumor generation create the product "C," innuendo? Don't Objectivists, er, object to putting together things that aren't solidly grounded in our beloved "evidence"? Above all, Mr. Reed (snaps suspenders like Spencer Tracy did in that monkey movie), does this not all qualify as blatant, overt, trollcraft? If it's not directly identified in that opus magnus you wrote, it clearly should be, by  solid logical extension.

I made a mistake by using an allegory that could be taken for "Jew-baiting" rather than its actual intent, and for that mistake I have apologized.  What I would like to know is if Adam's also represents an honest mistake. I do not see how it could be so, but I am certainly open to explanation, just as I hope others are open to the explanation of how my own error was made, and that I am not an anti-Semite.

rde
Transcending all races, colors, and creeds since 1958

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/29, 2:55pm)


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Post 195

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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Andy:But there's a world of difference between repressing emotions to put a trauma behind yourself and repressing a memory of that trauma to the point of amnesia.  If the latter ever happens, it would be extraordinary.  I don't think you can find anywhere an independently verified instance of it.

 Andy, if some states of mind could be induced with drugs, why don't you believe that they could be, also, natural state of minds!
CD


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Post 196

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, Donald, Jim, Brant, and Laure illuminate what is wrong with the thread [see my "riddle"--#119]: "The quotes are all about personalities, instead of ideas ...failure to engage the others ...none of those posts have anything to do with the article ...those quotes are all about getting another by the throat, nothing more ...they have engaged in ad hominem and emotionalism ...they all run counter to a practice of winning over opponents by abstaining from calling them scoundrels ... many participants on this thread are..trying to make enemies out of friends... It is harder to accept differences of opinion among people who purport to share your philosophy than with those who don't."

These are all true, but my riddle was to isolate one common, underlying theme in these bitter, personal fights:

The dictionary defines "good will" as a kindly feeling of approval and support; an attitude of kindness or friendliness; benevolence; a good relationship (as of a business enterprise with its customers); a friendly or positive disposition toward someone.

This is what is *lacking* in the personal attacks and in the 'raising the stakes' escalating responses. There is a tone of non-benevolence, ill-will or sarcasm or questioning of motives or intelligence or integrity or maturity.

To put it simply, benevolence and the respect and presumption of good motives (and the ignoring of minor mistakes and abrasions and 'rough edges' of others) are attitudes missing not just in Solo but among Objectivists [the acrimony surrounding all the feuds and splits is another form of this.]

So to put it in a phrase, the underlying theme is the *absence of benevolence* and its implementation, good will.

And civility is nothing more than the *form* this underlying attitude takes in your respectful dealings that other human beings(with extremely rare exceptions) universally deserve.

Were the basic benevolence and respect there between the parties, you would not have seen what you have.

Phil

[ And this is where it has to end up: "So as I said before, "Fuck you." I will not post to you any longer on any issue, nor comment on your views." - MSK vs. Andy sub-thread, #191 ]

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 8/29, 4:26pm)


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Post 197

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 5:20pmSanction this postReply
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Rich,

I accept your apology. As for your second post, I'll need to read it again later because, for now, I don't understand it at all. If I ever manage to figure out what you are asking, I'll respond as best I can.

Post 198

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
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Were the basic benevolence and respect there between the parties, you would not have seen what you have.
OK, Phil, I'm always willing to learn.  Specifically what should I have done differently to cultivate Michael as a friendly adversary?

Andy



Post 199

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 6:47pmSanction this postReply
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Ciro,
Andy, if some states of mind could be induced with drugs, why don't you believe that they could be, also, natural state of minds!
Yes, of course, you can chemically addle your brain with drugs.  You can even get it to malfunction and black out.  That would be a synthetic amnesia, I suppose.  What does that have to do the quack therapy of recovering so-called repressed memories of trauma?  If this were a legit therapy, it is not a daunting proposition to scientifically verify its efficacy.  All it entails is a study in which the recovered memories are verified against the recall of third parties.  I am unaware of any study like that.

Andy


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