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Post 100

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 1:14amSanction this postReply
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BIG HUGE THANK YOU AND COMMENTS

Kat - Thank you for such a beautiful homage (Post 14) and for hissing. There's a reason I love you. (btw - I know you were not making fun of diabetes, but merely paying back in kind. I believe that most people see it this way also.)

Rich Engle - Thanks for you comments along this thread, especially about the value you gave to my article. As usual, you have a very colorful way of expressing yourself that is a pleasure to read.

Laj - Even though we disagree about certain issues involving addiction (especially about what constitutes disease of consciousness, apparently, owing to our differences on the nature of it), thank you for your recognition of what I was trying to do (Post 45) and for some pretty intelligent input along the way. As I stated on another thread, you know more about addiction than most who disagree with me.

Joe Maurone - Thank you for your positive comments. I don't know the work of Thomas Szasz, but I will read up on it. Your stated your interest in the mind/brain connection. This is where many issues about mental illness will be discovered, as it will obviously start with low-level subconscious events, especially automatic ones. Then psycho-epistemology, i.e. the connection between the subconscious and conscious mind, will become even more important in defining what is disease and what is volitional. But I can see psycho-epistemology running in parallel and practically intertwined with the study of the mind/brain connection as scientific knowledge develops.

Linz - Your comments about my article, in the context of the recent episode, are most welcome as a compliment. Like Joe R, you discard the psycho-epistemological reality of addiction outright, so you use the oversimplified definition (the package concept) of addiction being merely a matter of choice, as if it were only a conscious mind problem and not a subconscious mind problem also. You are right that there is something in the air about addicts being heroes and part of an elite, but I assure you that this does not come from actually recovered addicts. Not one I know holds this opinion. They can talk to each other because they passed through the same experience and say the same things, while those who haven't usually talk bullshit about it. That's not a very elite club, I can assure you. About the Barbara jab, you already know what I think about that (and the totally false mischaracterization of her and James being against pleasure). Regardless, your comments are appreciated and thank you.

Jeff Riggenbach - I appreciate your comments, even though we disagree. (I find your "vision" example particularly ludicrous and oversimplified, for example. I liked the Szasz quote, though, believe it or not. His comment - "What is relevant is whether 'the addiction' -- smoking, drinking, shooting heroin -- is or is not part of an internally significant dramatic production in which the 'patient-victim' is the star" - is surprisingly close to what my own position is, except my position tries to identify the subconscious level of where such a "dramatic production" takes place and what the nature of it is, i.e. what caused it to install itself. This goes way beyond "victem." Of course, his comment on how easy it all will be once you accept his approach is also ludicrous. I am very pleased for you that his approach did work (indicating that there was some "victem" stuff going on that caused your particular flavor of addiction). I can see that it will not work for everyone, however, because of the oversimplified defnition of addiction. Still, thank you for your comments, except for the victimhood thing about me, which is complete bullshit. (Still, I see it as based on your own oversimplified view of addiction, despite the play on words indicating sarcasm.)

Daniel O'Conner - Even though you made no evaluation of the article, I think your comment illustrated my view quite well that there is no such thing as the package concept "addiction" (or alcoholism, which you limit your comment to). There are many types, i.e. they do share a couple of universal traits, which I think I identified, but there is a sea of differences between them in both details and other essential natures, Treatment must vary according to these differences. Genetic propensity is certainly one such difference.

Ethan, Gary and Glenn - Thank you guys for standing up for me in a properly perceived mind game. As I stated in another post, unfortunately needy and lonely attention mongers are inevitable in a subject like this and they will do what they must to get their attention fix. Thanks for the swats.

Luke - Thank you for your comments. I certainly will accept your lunch invitation. (Sorry about the last meeting - I simply forgot because I was immersed in writing this article and completely lost track of everything else. I won't forget the next time, I hope. I will take a look at the book.)

To everybody who I thanked before but who continued in this discussion - Thank you once again. Your input shows that I am reaching people enough for them to want to stand up for my ideas, many of which are yours.

Michael


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Post 101

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:31amSanction this postReply
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Michael,
He even told me in a post on another thread that his pain would make anything I ever went through look like a picnic (but, of course, he heroically prefers privacy), or something to that effect.
I never said any such thing to you.  You made it up.  If I were ever to compare my suffering to another person (which is an incredibly self-absorbed thing to do), it would be to note that I have had good life with little pain.  While part of that is simply good fortune, most of it is because I have kept my head screwed on straight and avoided most of the games fools play.  Because I know most suffering can be avoided, I commit part of my time to helping those who suffer from their own follies to learn this.

Let's contrast this with your behavior.  Again you play the victim, now with a grievance that is entirely invented.  The reality is, Michael, that from the start you have responded to me with aggression and insults, and then you take exception when I haven't rolled over.  Repeatedly I have offered you goodwill and you refuse it.  That's because a victim needs a nemesis, and that's the role you have assigned me in your play.

It causes me no harm, but it is still an injustice to me.  Your first reaction will be to scoff, but the proof is the fact that you can find no grievance in what I actually write, only in what you "read between the lines".  In other words, what you invent.

Andy


Post 102

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
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MSK (post 99):
That puts Andy way out in first place with 27 posts and me in a poor second with 11 (including this one).
Counting posts has a built-in bias. Yours are usually long and his are not. I bet that using word-count you exceed him by far. Want to bet some significant dollars?


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Post 103

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Let's see, I've only written clearly and repeatedly that you must rely upon your reason.  Why you remain confused about that at this late point in the discussion is beyond me.  If you want to disagree with what I said, then disagree!  It's not that hard.  You can do it without knowing anything more than what I've written.
 
My reason tells me that the faceless nature of Internet forums creates an additional challenge for those who wish to be real, to have others accept our sincerity, our honesty, and our good will,  and a great opportunity for those who do not. Which actor among the many inside of us has been pushed  (or has jumped) onto the stage? Most of us cannot even sit for a minute without having internal dialogue or associating. My reason also tells me that within the limitations of forum writing, tone is very important and difficult to control, much like it is when playing an instrument.


Unlike what a number of the sob sisters have said, I don't need to win an argument.  I take satisfaction in knowing that I have expressed my thoughts well.  That's enough for me.  If I learn that someone has gotten a benefit from what I've done, that's a bonus.  But I can't live for that.  I have to live for myself.
 
Indeed. Yet you come here, which means that on some level, you believe that being part of a community allows us to experience life and do things that we cannot do alone.


Sure, and so I take it you believe in global warming, Keynesian economics, and the food pyramid that the professionals tell us are the way the world works.Ah, there's a New Puritan for you.  The dignity of privacy is an evasion.  Without public revelation of your life you are a dishonest person.

The three items you mention I do not believe we have ever discussed. For that matter, I do not recall having commented on them here on SOLO, and probably haven't done it anywhere. But, since you asked. I am not a scientist, and have only read a number of debates promoting both sides of the argument, mainly those written by scientists, scientific types, politicians, political types, and various hybrids. I find myself only continuing to look at the data and various analyses. I do believe that the current cycle of planetary conditions, weather, and so forth is often falsely and fully attributed to what is generally referred to as global warming. As to Keynesian economics, I know little of it, because (and perhaps I am not fully informed because of this, but I think not) that when I did come in contact with it, from first blush it appeared diametrically opposed to my capitalism, which is of the laissez-faire variety. I do not often study economics, because I am a businessman and capitalism serves me well.  So, no on that one. As to this new food pyramid, it is goofy, complicated, stupid, and I shudder to think about how much money it cost to develop it. Further, it is already being used to sell cereals that are full of white sugar, which, while probably coincidental, just goes to show how well things are working out. The old model got used that way too, but this one has so many pretty flashing lights on it, that it only makes things easier.  Nutrition is an area where I have had heavy exposure and experience, and aside from learning about how to use the advantage of herbs and supplements, I find it mostly a matter of Susan Powter's eat/breathe/move. Fortunately, I am blessed with a high metabolism and have never had much struggle with it. So, no, on that one too. So, there is some more public revelatin' of my life for you. Such pathetic narcissism.:) A New Puritan? Heavens, my friend- your reason  (and, maybe sometimes how I write) has brought you very far from knowing me (invokes privacy at that point).

Best Regards,
rde

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/23, 7:59am)

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/23, 8:05am)


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Post 104

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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New Puritan New Puritan New Puritan!

(It hasn't been said enough in this thread)

:-P


Post 105

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 8:38amSanction this postReply
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It's a construct. You want to worry about malevolent types, start with radical fundamentalists. Specifically, their leaders.
(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/23, 8:42am)

"If you have an unpleasant nature, and dislike people, it is no obstacle to The Work."- J.G. Bennett

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/23, 9:23am)


Post 106

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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It hasn't been said enough in this thread
Which I presume, Ethan, is the reason why you and Rich were the last ones to use the phrase in this thread?

Andy

[Edited because I overlooked Rich's contribution when my eyes glazed over during the first reading of his post.]

(Edited by Andy Postema on 9/23, 9:29am)


Post 107

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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I want to make a rectification.

I stated before about Andy:
He even told me in a post on another thread that his pain would make anything I ever went through look like a picnic (but, of course, he heroically prefers privacy), or something to that effect.
This image is firmly entrenched in my memory, but I just tried to go through some of my past posts and Andy's and I could not find it. There are simply too many posts and there is no easy "search posts" feature on Solo. (After nearly 2,000 posts, I am thinking of taking the time to save some of them in files according to subject, but time is what I do not have right now.)

I will admit the possibility that I might be mixing Andy up with someone else who has similar characteristics on this particular point. I am not sure - one way or the other - and the only way to find out is to find the particular post where I called the person to task for doing that. So in the interest of being objective, I will retract that one part, with apology for now. A statement like that always should be presented with the source.

The rest of my observations stand as I wrote them. The "victim" bullshit that Andy responded is nothing more than that. Bullshit.

One thing my search did was to make me proud of the many comments I have made on so many different issues. Solo stands for saying what you mean and meaning what you say. I have stood my ground with extremely precise consistency and rationality of my arguments, grounding them in solid premises. That does make me proud.

I found a couple of gems I would like to share (2 from Andy and 1 from me):

Andy

http://solohq.com/Forum/ArticleDiscussions/1377_3.shtml#79

For instance, I don't make an ass of myself by long-distance psychologizing of people, a la "The Drooling Beast" or this bit of tripe you wrote.

What prompted that was I had mentioned that he sounded young or like a Scientologist because of his stance on the validity of psychology (which Scientology was contesting via Tom Cruise at the time), not that he was young or a Scientologist. This started a lot of bad vibes.

 

I always have a problem discussing anything with a person who starts by saying, "Your problem is..." and then proceeds with unsolicited advice and psychologizing, long distance or otherwise. So in this regard, according to Andy's own position regarding others, his victimhood psychologizing crap means that he certainly did make an ass of himself. His words, not mine.

 

 

Andy (again)

http://solohq.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0610.shtml#17 

Gleaning the plain purpose behind someone's statements is not psychologizing.  Psychologizing involves assigning a cause in the absence of evidence for someone's behavior.

Yup. Nowhere in my discussion of this "unpleasant" topic on Solo (addiction) have I engaged in self pity or setting myself up as a victim. In "Madalena" I made a clear distinction between the events in life where you are crucified and those when you react poorly. Obviously in the crucified part, there is a victim. In the other, there is self responsibility. People often are mean. Really mean. They make wars of conquest with guns, among other acts of meaness. That is their responsibility and whom they harm is a victim. How a person reacts to being harmed is his own responsibility and if he reacts poorly, he is not a victim for the negative consequences of such poor reaction. I have never stated otherwise, nor implied that. I have reported my observations based on experience in the manner of a scientist, in the lack of objective evidence to present. I mentioned once a film (French Connection) because everybody knows it and it reflects the reality of my own experiences in certain essential points.

 

So assigning a cause in the absence of evidence... (you know, if the shoe fits...)

 

Me

http://solohq.com/Forum/Quotes/0776.shtml#4 

I intend to write an article on this. In the meantime - let's laugh. Let's bait shitaholics. Let's be really good to ourselves and each other. (Let's even try to reconcile misunderstandings.)

Eat, drink (if you can - I can't) and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

Also, endeavor to produce something worthwhile. That's the greatest high there is.

Amen.

 
(btw - A friend quipped in an e-mail to me, wondering of it is possible to be addicted to hijacking threads... LOLOLOL...)

Michael


Post 108

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Michael,
I will admit the possibility that I might be mixing Andy up with someone else who has similar characteristics on this particular point. I am not sure - one way or the other - and the only way to find out is to find the particular post where I called the person to task for doing that. So in the interest of being objective, I will retract that one part, with apology for now. A statement like that always should be presented with the source.
Sorry, but you've exhausted my goodwill.  This is half-assed and won't fly.  You've left the door wide open to the possibility that I did write what you claimed.  Nothing short of an unconditional statement by you that I never wrote the cruel statement you invented will demonstrate your sincerity.  If that's not important to you, that's fine by me.  I'm not the one sullied by this exchange.

Andy

P.S. By the way, "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die" may be the greatest high, but it's not the epitome of the good life.  It's the motto of the grasshopper snearing at the ant.  It's hedonism rationalized by fatalism.  It's the surrender of the addict to his indulgences.


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Post 109

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Andy indeed never wrote it. I believe you are thinking of Casey over on the very long thread.

Jon


Post 110

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
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Jon,

Thank you. You are right. I do stand corrected on that point. Let's see if there is time to edit my original post...

Michael

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Post 111

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
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Jon beat me to the punch! Its in the Ayn Rand Smeared again thread in the 200's!


http://solohq.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0611_10.shtml#207


(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 9/23, 11:07am)

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 9/23, 11:09am)


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Post 112

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:12amSanction this postReply
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Possible bombsight configuration problem:

P.S. By the way, "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die" may be the greatest high, but it's not the epitome of the good life.  It's the motto of the grasshopper snearing at the ant.  It's hedonism rationalized by fatalism.  It's the surrender of the addict to his indulgences.
 
It was very clear to me that he was referring to the second part of his statement, which was about "producing something worthwhile". You never struck me as a literalist. And even if you are a literalist, you destroyed his context and completeness by plucking.  He was saying this: enjoy each day fully, as if it were your last (because it might be), and try to produce something meaningful.

Considering mortality is not fatalism, unless that is the individual consciousness from which we operate. Death is a part of life- how we come to live with that fact  is one of the most important things we ever decide in our lives. As to the comments on hedonism, they are irrelevant, because clearly, without doubt, even over the Internet, MSK does not express himself as a hedonist. At least not a professional one... :)

Exhausting your goodwill? Holy heck, brother- the man just came to you with an olive branch. He's not going to kiss your ring.  He was being sincere and gracious, and you could've done the same. That's how it works. That kind of grace is what holds us together.








Post 113

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Jamie,

Your comments yesterday prompted some reflection.  I think a lot of the heat in this thread results from assuming that the tone one takes in a philosophical discussion of addiction is the same tone one would use in counseling an addict.  I think we can agree that does not follow logically.

I have a straightforward approach to addiction.  An addict must learn one important lesson:  He and he alone controls his life.  I've pounded upon that theme here in a no-holds-barred tone.  However, the tone I use to actually teach an addict that lesson depends upon the addict.  With some people you have to forcefully challenge them.  Others require kid gloves.  Because the objective is to get the addict to learn this lesson, you have to use whatever works.  There is no one method of counseling that's a cure-all.

My objection to psychology in regards to addiction is, if I may generalize, that, on the one hand, it complicates the lesson that needs to be learned, but, on the other hand, dictates that this or that method of treatment fits all addicts.  It's just the opposite.  What needs to be learned is singular and simple.  How that lesson needs to be taught is varied and complicated.  So I agree with you that there's been a lot left unsaid about what actually needs to be done to successfully help an addict recover.  But then I don't think there can be a lot said about that in a forum like this, because what works is unique to each situation.

Andy


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Post 114

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Thank you for the link. I have corrected my original post, but left the erroneous remark in a footnote entitled "Edit" stating the correction so that those reading this thread will not be confused.

Bonks to you and Jon.

Michael

Edit:
Andy - It's funny how you are finally coming around to my way of thinking. Different addictions and different people require different approaches. Not "one size fits all," which is loud and clear in my article. Now all we have to do is cross another line and understand that "he and he alone controls his own life" applies to the conscious mind, and that there are automatic subconscious integrations and processes that he does not control that can go berserk (and are present in many forms of addiction), but that can be addressed successfully with specialized treatment.
(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 9/23, 11:28am)


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Post 115

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 6:36amSanction this postReply
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I enjoyed this article of yours on addiction, Michael.  Maybe we can discuss various aspects of the subject a bit more at our next meeting on Merritt Island on October 15, 2005.

I dealt with my son who was an addict and drug dealer when he was a minor living in my home some nine years ago.  My wife and I would never wish such an experience on anyone, friend or foe.

The behavior of some SOLO members regarding your article reminds me, yet again, of why I often shy away from forums.  To be honest, the only reason I might frequent this site from time to time is to see if you (or Luke) have a new offering.  Well, "Thanks for Sharing!"

With Much Appreciation, 

Bohica Bob


Post 116

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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My objection to psychology in regards to addiction is, if I may generalize, that, on the one hand, it complicates the lesson that needs to be learned, but, on the other hand, dictates that this or that method of treatment fits all addicts.
 
And what singular lesson might that be? Do you mean to not use?

Psychology complicates only if if the psychologist is not competent at the wheel. Psychologists can and do get involved with addicts. But, most of them immediately bring in resources specific to addiction. A standalone psychotherapist will rarely want to take on an addiction case solo- it is not what they do.

Oh, and as far as your "eyes glazing over" comment- anyone can say that about anyone. I don't consider your glazing problem to be mine. I am more than reasonably clear in my writing. You just don't care for my style, and my perspective. No problem.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/23, 11:24am)


Post 117

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:25amSanction this postReply
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Rich,

You're right.  I focused upon the classic line from literature Michael cited to the exclusion of his clever twist upon it.  In its entirety, Michael's statement has a profoundness that I admire and agree with.  Otherwise, you have confused nettles with olive branches.

Andy


Post 118

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Rich,
And what singular lesson might that be?
Do you have reading comprehension problem?  No?  Then re-read my post.

Andy


Post 119

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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Bohica Bob - Thank you so much. I am profoundly pleased that my article is helping bring you to post here. Yes, we can talk about this all night over supper after the meeting and I am very interested in how you dealt with your problem. (It might be useful in continuing work on addiction from an Objectivist viewpoint.) I promise that I will not miss the meeting if at all humanly possible. I will not write or revise any article on that day.

(Andy, please see Post 114 - there was an edit to you.)


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