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Post 120

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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Ah, yes...I must've glazed over for a moment... :)

So, this is the silver bullet, that we are the captains of our own ships? All that needs done is make sure addicts reject determinism. In your counseling, this can involve proper application of different "tones" from case to case. Basically, it's teaching philosophy (preferably yours), using different approaches until the addict "gets it".

Rightio. Have many relapses out of your clients? No fibbing, now.... :)

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/23, 11:43am)


Post 121

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:42amSanction this postReply
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OK, gentlemen.  I'm done with this thread.  It's difficult to communicate with people who must read between the lines (Michael) or don't read at all (Rich), but find plenty to be aggrieved by what I write.  There's nothing left but sniping, and I find no further value into trying to turn the potshots into a more substantive conversation.

I surrender the field to you.

Andy


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Post 122

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:43amSanction this postReply
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What about that whole default last word thing? I wanna see I wanna see!

Post 123

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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I tried to resist, but I cannot. The snipe about reading between the lines was way too funny.

One of the main sections in my article is called, The parts of the mind vulnerable to addiction, and another, The subconscious and sense of identity.

You don't even have to read the lines, much less in between them. Just read the titles.

You can't help but see them unless you have another agenda that causes intellectual blank-outs.

Michael

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Post 124

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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Andy,

Quitter! (You seem to be doing that a lot lately.)


gw
 
 




Post 125

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
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I surrender the field to you.


Ah yes, discourse taken as one of the bloodsports. Known far and wide for its efficacy in the areas of building understanding, fellowship, and personal growth.

For that, I play chess. www.chesspostcard.com is quite easy to do, and free. Plus, there is a message field, and you can have verbal jousting as well.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/23, 2:19pm)


Post 126

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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quote Well, "Thanks for Sharing!"
Crap, this isn't going to turn into a 12-step meeting is it? If it is, I'm out of here.


Post 127

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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Come on, Donald. Be nice to a newbie.

I know Bob and I can assure you that his comment was tongue-in-cheek. He's a helluva guy, stands up strongly for what he believes and has a first-class mind.

But that's the problem with a certain type of Objectivist. His fear of getting it wrong is so great that his sense of humor atrophies.

For example, could you possibly see the humor (especially with respect to benevolent motives) in the following quote from the recently departed from this thread?
You let them make the choice to stay or move on, and as snakes in the grass are wont to do, they moved on to darker places.
//;-)

Michael

Post 128

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, no need to vouch for your buddy. Since you are good at spotting humor maybe you'll pick up some from my post. The problem with benevolent motives is they are not easily conveyed in an electronic forum. 


Post 129

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
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Donald,

Oops. Given the bombastic nature of many of the posts, (including all that hapless victimhood horseshit), I goofed. Completely misread you.

LOLOLOLOLOL...

Sorry.

(btw - I only know Bob from several Solo/Ayn Rand Meetup meetings - not enough to be a buddy but good enough to become one.)

Michael


Post 130

Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 8:08amSanction this postReply
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Wait for it... wait for it....

(..............)

Soon, it will be time to send one of my tracking hounds out to find him. 12 lbs. of raw killing machine.


Post 131

Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 2:34amSanction this postReply
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An important critique of the "alcoholisms is a disease" thesis is Herbert Fingarette, Heavy Drinking (University of California Press, 1989).  Several of Stanton Peel's books also examine the issue from the viewpoint that "addiction" involves choices people make and isn't, except in very rare cases, something over which individuals lack all control. And there is, of course, the radical anti-addiction position of Thomas Szasz.

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Post 132

Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 6:54amSanction this postReply
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Tibor,

Thank you for that comment. (btw - I have read a bit of Stanton Peele, who uses a good deal of common sense. Thanks for reminding me of him. I also will look at the Fingarette book.)

The free choice people miss a very important point. I don't know of one addict or alcoholic who chose to become an addict or alcoholic. They chose to use a substance (for any number of reasons, pleasure, escape, etc.) and the dependency developed over time. The argument goes that addicts keep choosing to use the substance so they can choose to stop. Here's the rub. Addicts once had a reason to use. Craving developed and that reason stopped being important. Craving is a type of pain. So a choice to use the substance has transformed into a choice to stop the pain, which is a "pro-life" type of choice in a twisted sense. That makes even the word "choice" become oversimplified. One thing is chosen (pleasure, for instance). Over time another thing becomes chosen (to stop the pain). The same substance is used for both. The free will side says that only the choice to use the substance or not is essential, thus completely missing these other choices.

Likewise, choice is complicated for stopping. I personally chose to stop both alcohol and drugs - about 50 gazillion times. I chose and chose and chose and chose and chose to stop and it simply would not take. That is because the disease was no longer the fact of using the substance. It was an identity merge with the substance (which even Szasz admits to some extent) and a faculty of volition atrophied in terms of time frame. I had to disengage my identity from the substance (identity merge) and take small daily steps to recover medium term and long term valuing (I could not keep the required mental concentration up no matter how hard I tried).

Thus an addict cannot simply choose to stop and end of story. Choice has to involve rejecting his own identity, adopting a new one and making a series of daily choices to exercise his volition, much in the same manner as choosing to do physical therapy.

That's why I reject the free will/determinism dichotomy with an oversimplified definition of addiction. It does not take psycho-epistemology into account, but keeps the problem merely at the level of substance use as an addict's conscious behavior without any essential cause other than his free choice.

That view is great for non-addicts, since they do not have to think about it anymore. However, it does precious little for them if they do become addicted, or if a loved one does.

My article is a look at the nature of both the non-volitional dependency (chemical and psycho-epistemological) and the volitional choices that have to be made. I do not adopt the AA and NA vague definition of an incurable disease (which can only be arrested, never cured). That is more like a rationalization instead of an identification. I limit the word disease merely to physical dependency, identity merge and atrophied faculty of volition, all of which can be treated, but which also can get worse (as diseases are wont to do), or even clear up by themselves (as sometimes happens). Frankly, I think it is a good start Objectivism-wise.

Michael

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Post 133

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 7:18pmSanction this postReply
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In the last several days I read a book by Robert Kane titled A Contemporary Introduction to Free Will. It is about the free will - determinism debate among academic philosophers. Part of it addressed addiction and made some distinctions not made on this forum, so I thought they were worth passing on.

Harry Frankfurt made a distinction between first-order desires and second-order desires. The latter are about the former. For example, a drug addict may have a first order desire to use a drug. However, he may also want to overcome his addiction in order to save his job and marriage. Frankfurt thinks that having such second-order desires is one of the things that make us human. Other animals have first-order desires. However, humans ordinarily have the ability to think about what desires and purposes they ought to have. In other words, they are capable of "reflective self-evaluation." If a drug addict's second-order desire (or lack thereof) is ineffective, he cannot resist taking the drug. "His behavior is therefore compulsive and addictive; and compulsive or addictive behavior are not free." He lacks the will to make his second-order desire prevail.

Gary Watson made a distinction between desires and values. He thinks that Frankfurt's distinction is only partly adequate because  "reflective self-evaluation" also involves practical reason. What we value is what our practical reason tells us is the best thing to do or what goals we should pursue -- that is, what we have good reasons to do. Often our values in this sense conflict with our desires and passions. When desires win out over values, the person has weakness of will. Weakness of will is the opposite of self-control, but contra Frankfurt, it is not always compulsive or addictive behavior.

Watson's distinction is much like Plato's, that Reason and Desire are two parts of the soul that can conflict with one another. When our desires conform to our Reason, we have self-control or self discipline. When they conflict, we are less free. Again, weakness of will is the opposite of self-control.

A similar distincion, made on this forum, is between shorter-term and longer-term values.

An observation I will make about the article and discussion so far on this forum is its lack of attention to becoming or not becoming an addict in contrast to being an addict. Maybe I may have overlooked something, but MSK said little or nothing about the former until post 132. There he says:

The free choice people miss a very important point. I don't know of one addict or alcoholic who chose to become an addict or alcoholic.
I regard that as an overstatment. That they didn't say it doesn't mean they missed it. Maybe they, like me, thought it was obvious. The persons repeatedly choose to do what turn them into addicts. Yet I believe the "free choice people" have not hammered enough on the choices people make during the time before they become addicts (if ever).
(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 9/26, 7:21pm)


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Post 134

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin writes:
>An observation I will make about the article and discussion so far on this forum is its lack of attention to becoming or not becoming an addict in contrast to being an addict.

Yes, the process needs to be examined in greater detail. Too many assumptions. Plus, to me, there's another fascinating part of the problem that keeps getting overlooked: why do rational, intelligent people make such obviously bad choices repeatedly in the first place? Just saying "oh, it's all about choice" seems lame - just begging the question. In my experience, the worst addicts are often people who are in other respects of extremely high calibre, so it seems there is something else going on.

- Daniel

Post 135

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:20pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin and Daniel,

Thank you for the comments. Like I said in the article, there is a great deal of work to be done. Analyzing and contrasting different views from others in light of psycho-epistemology (and biology) is one of the tasks.

On my "overstatement," I am merely showing what an oversimplification sounds like from the other end. The implication from the free will people is that there is no such thing as addiction, since you can choose to stop it whenever you want, which is false. It exists and you can't. There are conditions that must be met before a choice like quitting means anything but momentary wish.

Daniel, you are especially correct about rational, intelligent high calibre people becoming addicted. I mentioned that there is no target group for addiction - it hits all, even them.

Michael

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Post 136

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 11:05pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Michael.  Congratulations on finishing your article.  Discussing addiction in an Objectivist forum is a difficult proposition for several reasons that I can see.  One is the all too often binary nature of controversies around here; rational discussion often seems to devolve into a simple issue of categorizing ideas into Objectivist and non-Objectivist--or its more insidious cousin, more Objectivist and less Objectivist thought.  The first dichotomy is inevitable on a site such as this, and from what I've seen you've gotten some excellent Objectivist criticism from Joseph Rowlands, for instance.  Such criticism inevitably helps you to hone your ideas and clarify your thinking.  The related dichotomy of more/less is, I think, far less exacting or meaningful and far more destructive to rational discussion because it deals in issues of style over substance.  More/less is where orthodoxy enters the debate because what is "more" Objectivist is not so much more coherent with Objectivist premises as it is more consistent with what past Objectivists, or the majority of present Objectivist have thought or felt on a matter.  Such distinctions only confuse the issue and enjoin you not to clarify your thinking, but to scrap your thinking all together in favor of a "more" Objectivist model.  As you've stated, Objectivists have had very little to say about addiction and this fact alone makes discussing it here an uphill battle.

The very idea of alcoholic recovery attacks two "pillars" of Objectivist style in particular without, to my knowledge, undermining any of its premises; namely, bootstrapping and personal privacy.  As I understand these concepts, they have clear political relevance to Objectivism and Libertarianism.  Governmental noninterference in our lives means neither getting in the way nor giving unfair advantage.  Economically, "bootstrapping" is an ideal which exemplifies individual freedom.  But morally, on the level of consensual interdependence of individuals, as far as I can tell, it is moot.  If you want to help the poor--or the sick or the fearful or the lazy--"you will not be stopped."  Similarly, the right to privacy is essential in a free society, but compulsory privacy, or devaluing a person solely on the grounds of their personal openness is nothing but the ethics of an emotionally phobic bully who thinks that personal intimacy and openness is a sign of weakness utterly to be avoided in the self and shunned in others.

Thing is, the problems with basing your ideology on bootstrapping and privacy will never arise if everyone in the community agrees with you about bootstrapping and privacy.  SOLOHQ caters to an extremely select crowd, first and foremost with fans of Ayn Rand.  Ayn Rand wrote novels about ultra-charismatic bootstrapping heros and was herself an aggressively private person.  Not being a big fan of bootstrapping or aggressive personal privacy will in themselves disincline a person from being a fan of Rand in the first place, let alone frequenting what in coarse internet terms is an Ayn Rand fan site.  What this means for the community is that bootstrapping and personal privacy aproach the level of a categorical imperative because so few Randians will have even considered a context in which bootstrapping and personal privacy might be detrimental to the individual.

Which brings us to the issue of addiction itself as a "non-Objectivist" or "less Objectivist" concept.  Both democracy and capitalism depend upon the rationality of their communities to be effective.  The less raw rationality afoot, the less effectively democratic or capitalistic the society.  What then would be the implications for Objectivism if it were determined that a substance existed that incrementally undermines the will of certain individuals within society like a disease?  What if such substances were found to form the backbone of whole industries, relying for their subsistence on the addictive necessity to acquire the substance at whatever inflated prices the industry sets?  Objectivists might be just one or two conclusive scientific studies away from seeing drug use as an immoral act in and of itself, not for conventional puritanical reasons, but for putting the sovereignty of the individual at specific and catastrophic risk.  Perhaps a future schism of this kind has been foreshadowed in the "Brandbourne" controversy.  And so, Michael, though you yourself have stated explicitly that you "have no desire to take anybody’s candy away," the full implications of the reality of alcoholism for Objectivists may point another way entirely.

A couple thoughts on the "disease model."  You say: 
I have learned in life that any person -- rich, poor, smart, dumb, sad, happy, sickly, healthy, rational, mystic -- anyone in practically any situation can become addicted -- there is no target group nor any group that is immune.
From the get go, I think this tends to undermine your article.  To say that anyone can become addicted and no group is immune tends to imply that no individual is immune either; and that is counter to the experience of many people who visit this site.  Plenty of folks drink and drink heavily without becoming alcoholics; plenty of individuals are apparently perfectly immune.  Furthermore, when you imply that no one is immune, that we could all become alcoholics, you play right into the hands of those who say alcoholism is a behavior, the result of choices. You open yourself to the addiction = evasion argument.  But I know a guy from college who in later life simply traded adolescent drunkenness for working 80 hours a week to evade his personal, emotional responsibilities to his wife and child.  He's still as evasive and irrational as ever.  Many such people drink extremely heavily and cut back on or eliminate alcohol in their later lives without any trouble and, I might add, without improving their premises either.  Alcoholism isn't countered by raw rationality, because no amount of mere irrationality will make you an alcoholic.  Susceptibility to alcoholism makes you an alcoholic--a little nature, a little nurture and plenty of variables as yet unknown.

Alcoholism is a term I understand to apply to a condition/disorder/malady/problem/disease where the need for regular consumption of alcohol has become the psychological equivalent of a survival mechanism.  Sounds crazy--and it is.  Such folks have acquired a chemical imbalance and have become dependant upon alcohol for things like pleasure and relaxation which non-alcoholics are still able to get from a variety of sources, not the least of which are their own natural hormones.  I have no problem with asserting that alcohol can swamp freedom of choice and rationality (frat boys have used this principle to get laid from time immemorial).  The thing about addiction is that it is highly cyclical in its affect; within each addictive cycle it doesn't override the alcoholic's will until it does; and just as soon as it has, it returns you to your regular scheduled needs already in progress.

It's like this:  try not to breath.  Hold your breath until you pass out.  Can't do it?  What's the matter?  The brain can be completely deprived of oxygen for several minutes without any damage.  There's no harm in it; its perfectly safe.  There is no rational reason not to do it.  Holding your breath is an act of will.  Does the need to breath after a minute or so destroy your will?  Of course not.  Does it override your will in the moment, absolutely.  But it's more complicated than that because you can train yourself to hold your breath for several minutes at a time.  So volition can affect the compulsion to breath without being in total control of the mechanism.  I learned to hold my breath for close to 3 minutes when I was studying martial arts.  Did this make me more rational?  Considering the amount of Buddhist philosophy I was swimming in at the time, by Objectivist standards I was prolly more irrational than before I even started.  :-)

Incidentally, as I understand it, the idea that alcoholism is "incurable" does not mean that once afflicted the individual will always have an unreasoning need for booze, dooming them to white-knuckle their way through sober life.  It means that an alcoholic will never be able to drink "like a normal person" again; that alcohol will always be a dangerous trigger which alcoholics, by virtue of their condition, must avoid for the rest of their lives.  If they don't drink, alcoholics can eventually live quite normally.  Folks that are able to drink, and drink heavily, and later moderate their drinking habits are, by definition, not alcoholics.

Anyway, I hope some of this is useful to your project.  I enjoyed reading your article very much.  Your discussion of identity was particularly lucid and thought provoking.  There's so much to talk about and a real dearth of exactingly rational discussion of the phenomenon.  Thanks for making this start.

-Kevin


Post 137

Monday, September 26, 2005 - 11:56pmSanction this postReply
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Kevin,

Thank you for your comments. A couple of points. You discussed my article as if it were only concerning alcoholism. It also concerns drug addiction. My whole thesis is that there is no one-size-fits-all concept of addiction except for a few core issues I isolated (sense of identity merge, atrophy of faculty of volition and physical craving).

When I stated that no class of people is immune from addiction, my context was that there is no target group (ghetto, rich and lazy, Irish, college teachers, whatever). Any individual can become addicted to heroin or crack cocaine with just a few doses. Alcohol depends on many other factors. But I don't think any individual is above getting sick.

Your comments on the social implications gave me food for thought. I will mull them over.

About the incurable thing, there is a group similar to AA that allows members to have up to 2 drinks on any one occasion. They monitor each other. I personally believe in full recovery except in the case of strong biochemical propensity. This means that, in the case of alcohol, the individual most certainly will be able to return to drinking normally if he so chooses. In the case of hard drugs, physical addiction is their nature so there is no way to return to normal use (as there is no normal use).

Your statement below was especially welcome:
Alcoholism is a term I understand to apply to a condition/disorder/malady/problem/disease where the need for regular consumption of alcohol has become the psychological equivalent of a survival mechanism. 
This is a perfect characterization of what happens with the merge of substance with sense of identity I mentioned in the article.

Michael

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