RoR: Forum

No bonus points for being on Ayn Rand coat tails this time! I'm pleased...

Where are all the intelligent people? I remember being young and looking up to a lot of people and saying to myself, ”Wow! They are really smart. I want to be like them.”

That's the ballgame I'm afraid. Nothing is ever gained but that something else is lost.
I used to be in awe of MacGyver and it inspired me to smarten up, but that lead me to realise it was technobabble gobbledygook and the awe went away. Seems to me there were more attractive girls about the the world before I read Desmond Morris than when I put his book down. And it's thanks to the edification Ayn Rand and others provide that I can't sit down with the rest of the family and laugh at Funniest Home Videos or much of the other crap on TV.

Any rate, you raise important questions. What the hell are we here for? Did we come here wanting to do this? I wonder if you'll get any answers.

And what is really going on and where will it lead?

[Edit- Somebody should write an article about that.]

(Edited by Rick Giles on 10/07, 3:01am)

Post 1

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 7:02am

How angry I used to be. There I was, a young buck in America, raised in a freedom loving home, copy of The Virtue of Selfishness in my coat pocket, and damn near enough brains to pull off the dreams I had been collecting since I was a small child. (unfortunately, I could not find a university that would give degrees in Rock Star or Vigilante Billionaire)

I was immediately faced with what seemed only two viable political parties, both package dealing nonsense and hatred while never delivering on the rare but decent platforms they use more for spin than ideology. Combine that with a population that talks a good game about liberty and rights but only as they serve their favored demographic and you have a political system that is buying votes with the dole.

HOW CAN EVERYONE BE SO BLIND? I gnashed my teeth in anger.

I feel that even if the great individuals of this world are able to dominate world politics and present political systems that increase liberty and well being of the entire world population, there will still be collectivist jackoffs standing there with the palms of there hands turned up waiting for funding for a project that will restrict you liberty.

I stopped being angry by observing people who felt that as long as they had to work for a living that life was not good. The only path to the good life for them was some sort of unearned "ship coming in". Waiting for that ship usually involves alot of disappointment. As soon as you get used to the idea of working for a living, work doesn't seem too bad at all. We all love the idea of Atlantis, but I feel that people will always have to fight for their rights. I take that as a given now.

My life in practice now consists of fighting for rights and introducing liberty minded ideas when I can and (I feel more importantly) taking advantage of the rights that I have to actively pursue happiness and productivity. Just as I know I will work till I die, I am pretty sure I will have to fight unreason. I might as well enjoy it.

Post 2

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 7:04am

Rick,

Don't you sully the name of MacGyver, ya hear? He is perfect. His affair with Frank O'Conner had nothing- wait, wrong idol.

Sarah

Post 3

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 9:59am

     Where are all those people you used to look up to?

     They're dead, Jim...er...Bill.

     Where are those of your and newer generations?

     Most were 'schooled' in their motivations and interests to exclude the worth and use of ideas and thinking about 'issues.'

     They were 'schooled' in the public schools, Jim...er...Bill.

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 10/07, 10:00am)

Post 4

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 10:08am

:-#
(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/07, 10:12am)

Post 5

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 10:46am

William-you are not the only person that has changed. I believe I have changed more in the past month than almost my entire life. I have finally, well, finally is the wrong word because despite it's length it took me roughly a week to read, simply because I could not put it down. I finished Atlas Shrugged. I have only been a part of SOLO for probably a little over a month and have only made 4 posts. Which I believe now I should have never made without reading that book. I know every person on SOLO has probably heard what I'm about to say many times before or I'm sure have said it themselves, but Altas Shrugged has inspired me more than I think, rather, know any other book ever will. Besides giving me so much insite on so many things that before, as hard as I tried, I just couldn't completely understand. I've been realizing a lot of different things this past month and facing many of my problems, and that book has reitterated that I know what I'm going to do is the right thing.

I'm not going to continue because if I did this post would be entirely too long, if it isn't already. But, my whole point in the first place was simply to say that I do believe that the world can eventually be along the same lines as Atlantis. Being only 20 years old, it would be amazing if that could happen in my lifetime. I've thought things similar to this even before I read Atlas Shrugged. If there are people out there that read Altas Shrugged and felt the same way I do now (which I'm hoping is the majority of people here on SOLO), then I can only hope that people will start to act upon it. This is not meant to be taken as my "cry out to the world" or anything like that, just simply a statement that, for myself, I had to say.

(Edited by Katherine Gruhn on 10/07, 10:52am)

Post 6

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 12:50pm

Good to see you here, Katherine - in the immortal words, "in the name of the best within you, live long and prosper..."

Post 7

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 5:46pm

I haven't seen where Objectivists address the fact that business involves hiring, managing or selling stuff to the stupid or mediocre majority. I have worked in the hospitality industry for almost 15 years now, and I keep having episodes where I feel like pitching the cordless phone across the room while taking reservations from complete idiots. You just wouldn't believe how many people don't know how to read ads, calendars or maps. And it would astound you to realize how many people can't handle their finances, yet they continue to spend even more money than they can afford just to have a "romantic getaway." I have had people tell me on the phone that they want to use their debit cards to guarantee a reservation, but they have to put in $150 or so into their account so that I can get an authorization -- meaning that they must normally keep something like pocket change in their checking accounts, instead of several thousand dollars the way a rational person would for both routine expenses and emergencies. (At least you'd avoid paying a service charge to the bank every month by keeping a sufficiently high balance.) And they often show up without cash or traveller's checks to cover their expenses in case their cards get declined or they have car trouble.

So I have to wonder whether aspects of the capitalist system work against making the marginal people smarter or more efficient because the effort to "service" the improvident makes it easier for them to avoid the consequences of their own stupidity.

Post 8

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 6:03pm

"When I have to compensate for every idiotic driver out there who tries to go 100 mph through traffic."

Hey now! That's an exaggeration. I don't try to go 100 mph because I know the cop will give me a ticket, and all of these damn slow people are in my way, making it impossible!

Post 9

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 7:07pm

"So I have to wonder whether aspects of the capitalist system work against making the marginal people smarter or more efficient because the effort to "service" the improvident makes it easier for them to avoid the consequences of their own stupidity."

I've been in retail for the past 10 years now, primarily bookstores, and I have wondered the same thing. I've seen people wipe their brow when their debit or credit card clears when buying some stupid Danielle Steele novel or Star Magazine that they could read at the library. Yet stores like Barnes and Noble and Starbucks (since we carry their coffee, I'm picking on them) encourage the customer to "supersize" (it's only a dollar more for a VENTI! Fuck your Venti, it's my dollar, and I can barely finish the tall). Then they want us to push memberships like car salesman to get customers to spend more. Now, I'm a capitalist and understand that they need to make money as well. As a customer, I am smart enough to know what I want and what I can afford. If others can't, they wind up losing sleep at night because they are in debt paying years of interest payments on that Danielle Steele book and extra large mocha. That's freedom of choice.

Post 10

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 7:30pm

> Just as I said it was wrong for Phil Coates to try to improve others no matter how much he wants to, it’s also wrong for me to do so.

William, why do you think it's wrong for me (or you) to try to improve others? You didn't make your reasoning clear.

Phil

Post 11

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 7:34pm

Ladies and gentlemen and Sarah,-

Do you see what I see? Will's observations here come a lot closer to home than the too rapid passage of time and the prudence of carrying travelers cheques. He is, at the risk of being a hypocrite, talking about SOLO.

This place is supposed to be an instrument of change in the world, so I understand. It's supposed to be the HQ for world revolution. A kind of modern Plato's Academy- a classroom, a theater, a newsroom, a war room, a games room, a tunnel of love, a psychiatrist's couch, a publishing house. William seems to have had a shock not uncommon among us (welcome aboard Katherine) of an urgency in the world for what Dr Rand prescribed but he also writes of how few of us are living up to our vow to be field medics for Objectivism.

So what are the rest of you doing here? Lately, I’ve seen complaints, and whining, and unimportant bullshit spewing out of some very intelligent people. People who know much much much more than I do about so many different things, and yet they don’t do anything, they don’t say anything. What the hell?!?!

SOLO could be a world power, no mere message board forum. Me, I'd be more invested if I hadn't been somewhat traumatised by the growing list of those ex-members who came before. With the greatest acknowledgement to the property holders, I insist that part of respecting the agreeable endeavour Perigo and J.Row have invited us into demands a willingness to be disagreeable as, and where, Perigo and J.Row go astray.

Someone should write an article about that.

Post 12

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 8:29pm

Amazing William, thank you:

"I look forward to the days I can have a real conversation with someone about things that matter, things that are important. I constantly look for people worth talking to, people who can understand even a small part of what life is. I drop ideas into boring conversations, fishing for some kind of intelligent reaction. "

I too feel like this every time I meet someone new. Some people hate it when I do it, take their small-talk opinions and observations and force them to reduce down to principles. I project it onto them, I swear to myself I can see it in their eyes, "This one has potential, this person is very close." If only I could explain things the way they are in simple terms that they would understand... I've lent out my paperback of Atlas Shrugged so many times the binding is coming off. But for all those attempts, I've only found one that embraced it. One person out of dozens who cared and wanted to learn more. I need to tell you right now, that new great friend was worth every ounce of effort.

All I am saying is, don't write them off; the ignorant, the idiot, the somnambulist. It's not hopeless, it's worth it to try, to give them the chance. And maybe, if you're lucky, you'll meet a hero. I don't mean the famous or the epoch-changers. I mean the happy, self-actualized person who strives for achievement and excellence in all endeavors. They exist, they pass us on the streets, but get to know one and your life is never the same gray again.

I want to learn too. I want to be a hero too. That's why I'm here too. Maybe ours will be the generation to set things back in the right direction, but I do know that little will change unless hypocrites like us work to enlighten whoever is willing to listen.

Post 13

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 9:03pm

This reminds me of the story of CHARLIE (I believe Rand wrote a review of this movie?), which was also done on the Simpsons. Dumb person is unhappy because he's dumb, becomes smart,unhappy because the rest of the world is dumb, and wants to become dumb again which supposedly leads to real happiness. (Like Forrest Gump, I suppose.)

Sometimes I feel like that, like I just want to shove the crayon back up my nose into my brain. If I ever feel like that again, I will just think of this article. Thank you William. Good luck to you, and Shine On, brother.

Post 14

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 9:17pm

No bonus points for being on Ayn Rand coat tails this time! I'm pleased...

Well I'm pleased that you're pleased, lol.

Hey now! That's an exaggeration. I don't try to go 100 mph because I know the cop will give me a ticket, and all of these damn slow people are in my way, making it impossible!

lol, don't you see that it's actually immoral to drive that fast under normal circumstances? I'll explain my reasoning if you want, lol.

William, why do you think it's wrong for me (or you) to try to improve others? You didn't make your reasoning clear.

I apologize, I thought I had it clear in post 54 of "Articles: They Do A Website Good" but I reread that and I guess I didn't give much reason for my position, so here I go:

It's wrong for anyone to try to "improve" someone else, uninvited. What does it mean to "improve" someone else? It means that the "improvement" is by your own standards, requiring them to recognize and accept your standards above their own. It means that the person has to change some or all of their premises and standards. It means that the person has to change, for the better or worse is unimportant.

The reason I think it is wrong lies in it's futility. Let me first reiterate that I don't think it's wrong to try to improve others if you are invited to do so. Now, a rational person is always open to improvement, it's his goal in life to be the best he person he can. So that leaves only the irrational to improve uninvitedly (is that a word? lol). If the person is irrational, they're not going to listen, or understand the logic of your argument. It would be a waste of your time, and it's immoral to knowingly waste any minute of your life. Also, a rational person can refuse your attempt at improving them for one reason with two different outcomes. 1. They disagree with your logic, and you are wrong. 2. They disagree with your logic and they are wrong.

At this point, it's clear to me that attempting to change and irrational person is completely immoral. And since a rational person is always open to improvement, it is not an uninvited attempt to improve them.

The only other aspect to my position is this: what are you doing for you in trying to improve someone else? It is in your interest to live among better people, I get a great feeling when I see someone with even a hint of promise. But there is a better way to get people to chang;: by showing them the finished product of that change: yourself. Show them what you want them to be by being what you want them to be.
Like I said in this article: I remember being young and looking up to a lot of people and saying to myself, ”Wow! They are really smart. I want to be like them.”

Post 15

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 10:32pm

what are you doing for you in trying to improve someone else?

If you tried and succeeded in improving someone else(only after you have reached your goals) wouldn't it to some extent "speed up the process" of the world finally being only inhabited by rational people? Which, ultimately, is to your benefit.

(Edited by Katherine Gruhn on 10/07, 10:58pm)

Post 16

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 10:51pm

"Show them what you want them to be by being what you want them to be."

Exactly, William. Be the change you wish to see in the world. Lead by example. That way, even if no one else changes, at least you've achieved your path.

Post 17

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 11:08pm

Stephen, William,

I've lent out my paperback of Atlas Shrugged so many times the binding is coming off. But for all those attempts, I've only found one that embraced it. One person out of dozens who cared and wanted to learn more. I need to tell you right now, that new great friend was worth every ounce of effort.

People needn't embrace Atlas to be worth your time. Smart, good people don't have to like Rand. *gasp* Hell, they don't even have to agree with you. The person on this planet I'm closest to is my ideological polar opposite, and at the end of the day that doesn't matter a damn bit to either of us.

Sarah

Edit: Clarifying who I'm addressing
(Edited by Sarah House
on 10/07, 11:18pm)

Post 18

Saturday, October 8, 2005 - 1:03am

A person I helped change is now my friend. We love to discuss philosophy and mathematics and when we meet for dinner, I'm as happy as a politician with his hands in someone else's bank account.

As a professor and karate instructor, it feels great to mold someone into a mathematician or black belt. I enjoy replicating.

;-)

Post 19

Saturday, October 8, 2005 - 8:35am