About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 5:47amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Now you are free to do whatever you choose, Linz, but if you spread any more of your lies about me you will make your friend and ally very unhappy...
 
...So be careful, my friend, for the sake of our mutual friend."
 
Jesus, what a space-cadet!






 


Post 1

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 7:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bravo Linz!!!!!!!!!! A true and fine summing-up of a rotten situation.

All Cass' talk about cowardice is interesting. I wonder what she'll say about Regi's blackmail type letter.

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 10/18, 7:51am)


Post 2

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Eww, yeah, that was a slimy little email.

I had read through their discussion before this rebuttal and, honestly, I'm not sure it was necessary. By that I mean to any reasonable person, their 'attacks' were pretty baseless and shouldn't need any defense. To be shaken or put off by that rhetoric would seem to require a severely unfounded loyalty to Linz (as opposed to arriving here by our own rationally independent conclusions).

I don't wish to get sucked into this, but it would be interesting to see Firehammer lay out his specific problems with the SOLO creed, or 'Perigoism' or whatever scarlet letter of corrupted philosophy he chooses to cast. (More than just claiming the philosophy is too much like the Brandens.) Otherwise it just smacks as long-repressed personal issues.

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 8:11amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It would be great if someone could e-mail me a link to this discussion so I could better inform my decisions about this.
I was though, able to find SOLO's perversion of Objectivism parts 1 and 2 and I have to say that it makes sense. I believe that it is time for all Objectivists to STOP being so closed minded to creative spelling and START wearing special top hats!

I don't think we can be judged as rationally sound until we collectively make these changes!

God bless all of my Objectivists comrades!

Sipes


Post 4

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
God bless all of my Objectivists comrades!
 
Eh-eh-Eh! God and commie all in one line.... geez. :)

Blackmail via email. Brilliant.

rde
Loves the irrectractiblity of email launches.




Post 5

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Over on TA Cass first tries to suggest the email may be false, then actually reads Linz's article and tries to rationalize blackmail as defense against "lies." I thought I couldn't be more disgusted with her. I'll just have to set my disgust bar a little lower now.

Ethan


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
     Not germane to your main point, Linz, but, for all that I've read by and about Mr. Stolyarov, one thing that I've had a problem with was just exactly why he had/has this thing about the 'ph' usage...and why he expected others to accept it in his...essays. I've read lots of his stuff (some quite cogent, admittedly), and could find no clear explanation anywhere; not even on his site.

     Indeed, if one has a prob with how English-language 'rules' apply to it's constant amalgamating of intro'd words from other languages, and it's phonetic spelling-style, I can think of LOTS of other areas to make (though, not unilaterally for Pete's sakes) changes in; prob would be, we'd be talking overhauling a whole language. Even a govt fiat can't do that; and an, in effect, solitaire boycott of one rule or another seems...silly.

     As for the rest, I have read pretty well all missives amongst you, Firehammer, Sciabarra, and the other pro/con commenters, and, but for this black-e-mail (bem?) you refer to, find it all to be unfortunate that disagreers just can't agree to disagree without setting up agendas to chronically pound the other into saying "I'm wrong." FH sees gayness as immoral; you don't (nor I). The whole discussion seemed to stay on the plane of civility for the most part, especially amongst the principals.

     Then things went downhill with 'game-playing'-provoking /pushing-the-envelope of insults/flaming and searching for hot-buttons. FH & friends were wrong in that, granted, but, this b-e-m you brought up. Brother! Apparently such is not immoral when treating others whom one regards as 'immoral.'

    Anyhoo, thanx for letting us all know a bit more background re this whole unfortunate (energy-wasting?) episode.

LLAP
J:D


Post 7

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 10:51amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I had assumed that Stolyarov's usage of "f" instead of "ph" was a cultural thing, similar to someone else's usage of "s" instead of "z" (as in "realise"). If so, it seems hypocritical to mock him for it. If not, then he deserves it.

Post 8

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ha, now over on TA, Regi says his comment was a threat, not blackmail. This reminds me of when Cass said this in a topic about SOLO:

http://usabig.com/wowbbforums/view_topic.php?id=82&forum_id=6&page=1

Do you think coercive blackmail is a proper means for a free market to operate?
So this is a threat, not blackmail according to Regi.

In that same thread on TA she said to me:

You are a thug, and among human beings, a non-entity, (ie, a human of little worth) 
I wonder, will she now see Regi as a thug too. I doubt it.

Cass rants on about how its not fair that they can't post in defense of themselves on SOLO, when they are the ones who wanted to be banned, and then expect some fairness doctrine to allow them to have a voice. She rants about no banning on TA, but Regi has banned someone: Iftikhar

http://usabig.com/wowbbforums/view_topic.php?id=44&forum_id=6

Which is all well and good. He needed to be banned. But that's not ok at SOLO, even though they wanted to be banned?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Sad.


Post 9

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 12:16pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ahhh, the exact response I expected from Cass. BLANK OUT BLANK OUT BLANK OUT AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Post 10

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Whoa!  I just noticed that Ethan Dawe now has the title SOLO Secret Spy.  When did he get that colorful christening?

Where else do you lurk on behalf of SOLO, Ethan, besides The Autonomist, where clearly your association with SOLO is no secret?


Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 12:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Sanction: 33, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 33, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 33, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 33, No Sanction: 0
Post 12

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 2:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
One of the most curious ideas is being inserted almost "between the lines" in this affair.

The strange idea is that the subconscious does not exist - and that the Brandens have inserted it into Objectivism. (I believe I read something explicitly to that effect by Firehammer.)

That notion is completely false, though.

Having read a great deal of Nathaniel Branden's works, I can vouch for the fact that his standard of mental health is equivalent to Ayn Rand's, which includes the subconscious. (The very concept of psycho-epistemology is based on the interaction between the conscious and the subconscious.) Here is a quote from Ayn Rand in her essay, "The Psychology of Psychologizing" in The Objectivist - March 1971.
The task of evaluating the processes of man's subconscious is the province of psychology. Psychology does not regard its subject morally, but medically—i.e., from the aspect of health or malfunction (with cognitive competence as the proper standard of health).
Branden also includes self-esteem as a proper standard of health. Although I cannot find an explicit statement that Ayn Rand also does, her work is peppered with allusions to self-esteem as if it were a standard of mental health. To be fair to Branden's assertion that she wrote very little on self-esteem, she actually did not write very much on the topic itself. Her work, however, contains countless references to self-esteem - usually in passing and implying that self-esteem is a psychologically healthy state or one to be sought. Here is a typical such statement from "The Comprachicos," The Objectivist - September 1970.
... if he [a child] chooses to place some value above his own sense of himself, what he gradually kills is his self-esteem. Thereafter, he is left without motivation to correct his psycho-epistemology; he has reason to dread reason, reality and truth; his entire emotional mechanism is automatized to serve as a defense against them.
Rand's works are so saturated with references to the subconscious, I wonder where all this came from.

Her theory is that the conscious mind has much more control over the subconscious through volition than the standard psychology approach, but you can still find phrases like "subconscious urges" and such all throughout her writings.

Michael


Edit - I looked up Firehammer's view on the subconscious and his explicit statement is, "I know there is no such thing as a subconscious. All of the things attributed to that pseudo-concept (invented by Sigmund Freud) are explained by well understood attributes of consciousness, memory, and habituation."

He explicitly states that Rand was influenced into using the concept of subconscious by Nathaniel Branden, and that her use of the word "integration" was precise sometimes, but used "in an almost 'mystical' way in other contexts." On how integration works (for percepts, for example), Firehammer's opinion of Rand's view is "blank-out." Also, he thinks she used the word subconscious "in a somewhat confused way." (See this thread, http://usabig.com/wowbbforums/view_topic.php?id=28&forum_id=6, for concrete examples, including all of the above Firehammer quotes.)

Basically, Firehammer's view of the subconscious has little to do with Objectivism - as given in the works of Ayn Rand. He appears to merely want to set up Nathaniel Branden as a promoter of Freud's ideas, which he wasn't. Branden's concept of the subconscious (including repression) differs vastly from Freud's.

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 10/18, 3:39pm)
(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 10/18, 4:22pm)


Post 13

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John:

"...one thing that I've had a problem with was just exactly why he had/has this thing about the 'ph' usage."

Many moons ago when Stoly posted here he did exposit on his reasons. I can't recall what they were but I'm sure they were all quite "rational".

Efforts to tidy up english are as sane as the attempts to institute Esperanto. Mind your grammar & spelling but just let it be.

Ross

Post 14

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Here is Stolyarov's authoritative case for changing all "ph" words to "f" (assuming they are pronounced with an "f" sound - 'uphold' would therefore not qualify)

http://www.geocities.com/rationalargumentator/filosofyoflinguistics.html


Post 15

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
No cowardice can be detected by this detective, Linz.

Post 16

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bonk Michael,

I read his and Cass no sub-concious thing and decided I didn't have the stomach to look into it further.

Ethan


Post 17

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael, that was an excellent post and right on the money.

Post 18

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Wow.

Post 19

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Pete:
     Thanx...I think. Sheesh; what a read! Guess I didn't search good enough on his site.

     Actually, he makes a fair case about why the 'ph' shouldn't have been kept (I'm thinking of when Ye Olde English slowly shifted in writing style to present day).

     But, he doesn't make a good case for expecting others to read his personal boycotting of its  continued use.

     I remember that someone, quite a while ago, (1800's?) wrote a whole book avoiding all words that had the letter e. Its title started with D and had no e in it. Sorry I can't remember the book. Presumably it was merely a curious 'exercise.' Then he wrote a 2nd book with a similar arbitrary constraint.

     Anyway, I guess I understand now. Thanx again.

LLAP
J:D

P.S: now that I'm thinking about this pointless subject, I'd've opted for dropping silent e's, 1st.

(Edited by John Dailey on 10/18, 4:48pm)


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.