RoR: Forum

Hong,

You're so bad.

hahahaha, so are your disqualifing a sense of joy in one's life because it would be introspectively concluded?

;)

Michael

Wait a minute, than that would rule out pain and suffering as well. ;)

Post 81

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 7:36pm

No. I am not disqualifying anything.

I've seen so many different versions of "sense of joy in life" or "sense of life", which are so different from my own understanding of the term. Now when you use this expression again, you'll have to elaborate a bit more specifically.

Post 82

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 9:08pm

Ok, I think the greatest emotion one can feel is a love for existence. And of people who experience it some experience it more often then others. I think that is what Ashley conveyed, at least clearly to me. Its quite a reward to experience that. But it is something we feel inside. But I do think that doing all the work: self-esteem, good deeds, ethical work, enlightening others, honesty, etc When someone has put all those pieces together I think it is a special type of heroism.

In theater when someone can act, sing, and dance they call that a triple threat. I am thinking something along those lines, not an objectivist musical, but a person who can challenging bad things in the culture, create on the highest levels, and maintain a love for existence; ahhaahah, perhaps call that an Objectivist threat!?

Michael

Post 83

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 9:21pm

1. Someone who takes on extreme adversity and succeeds at putting it in its place.

That I can totally agree with.

---Landon

Post 84

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 9:53pm

Michael,
What do you mean by "a love for existence"? What existence?

Post 85

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 10:11pm

Hi Hong,

You mentioned once about completing a difficult long project and having a feeling of walking on air for days. I think those were the words you used. That moment...is a "love of existence" of being happy to be alive to experience that moment.

Right time, right place...and it might be only a second...but what a wonderful second it is.

Michael

Post 86

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 5:02am

Michael,
I wish you hadn't brought that up because that's not even half of the story and it has no resemblance to what Ashley had described in her posts at all, - if that's what you mean by "love of existence".

I am sorry. I usually understand your posts quite well, but your post #82 here is completely beyond me. I also don't get the notion of "greatest emotion" and what does it have to do with heroism.

BTW, it feels really good to be bad. Thanks. ;-)

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 2/04, 5:04am)

Post 87

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 11:07am

Hong asked: "I am sorry. I usually understand your posts quite well, but your post #82 here is completely beyond me. I also don't get the notion of "greatest emotion" and what does it have to do with heroism."

Because a flourishing human life is the standard for morality on this earth. One hallmark of flourishing is the emotion of joy; a celebration of existence of past, present, and/or in anticipation of future wonderful people, events, and achievements that you experience.

For me emotions are a barometer of the state of my mental health. And if I am periodically feeling the type of joy that Ashley outlined I am right where I want to be. Conversely, if I am feeling rage, I want to think a little bit about that, double check where the feelings are coming from, and review options that I can take in action to resolve the problems that I believe lead to that feeling. Its open to a lot of trial and error there is no guarantee to resolve it, but that is what good therapists are for if one can�t get it on their own.

To answer your question I think that the countenance and radiance of joy in person's demeanor and being is the result of their tremendous, heroic (?), work integrating their inner world with the outer.

Michael

Post 88

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 11:56am

Michael, thanks for clarifying the following for me,

"One hallmark of flourishing is the emotion of joy; a celebration of existence of ....wonderful people, events, and achievements that you experience.
.....
I think that the countenance and radiance of joy in person's demeanor and being is the result of their tremendous, heroic (?), work integrating their inner world with the outer."

(Emphasis mine)

This is also exactly what I understand about the "sense of joy" Rand talked about. Happiness comes from productive work and achievement, not from just any existence or introspection. You can not talk about joy and happiness without talking about the cause of these emotions.

You tried to use my example of one of my "cloud nine" moments, but you conveniently omitted those years of struggles, which at times were excruciatingly frustrating, agonizingly painful, and filled with despair and fear that I might eventually fail. It is not a matter of "right time, right place", it was pure brutal force hard work, with both mind and hands.

And the happy moment afterward was neither subjective nor "introspectively concluded". Everyone knew that to accomplish such a project successfully would almost automatic land one with a faculty position at a top research institute, get one invited to speak at conferences, to be asked to review papers for top scientific journals, write reviews, contribute book chapters, and most importantly earn respect from fellow scientists, in particular one's competitors in the same field! Self-esteem and joy do not come only from introspection. There is nothing arbitrary or subjective in achievement, at least not in my line of work.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 2/05, 5:36am)

Post 89

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 1:17pm

Hong: "You tried to use my example of one of my "cloud nine" moments, but you conveniently omitted those years of struggles, which at times were excruciatingly frustrating, agonizingly painful, and filled with despair and fear that I might eventually fail. It is not a matter of "right time, right place", it was pure brutal force hard work, with both mind and hands."

I am not thinking of joy as being the exclusive right of professional accomplishments but including a wonderful sex life combined with love, great friendships, enjoyment of the breaks we take from work, family, our environments, and everything else that makes up our life. Who has the better character the bitter, lonely, rude, dull, yet brilliant workaholic or joyfully successful person in the art of living.

Perhaps if we speak of challenges, then I think the person that has created a life of joy has worked their way to overcome despair, rage, quilt, envy, hatred�that is one great heroic achievement. Hahaha, I also think that a truly joyful person has element of ruthlessness that less happy people cannot even fathom.

Michael

Post 90

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 2:01pm

Michael,

Although my threshhold/standard for bestowing the title "hero" may be different than yours; your last 2 posts, on joy, were wonderful.

This paragraph in particular, was spot on: "I am not thinking of joy as being the exclusive right of professional accomplishments but including a wonderful sex life combined with love, great friendships, enjoyment of the breaks we take from work, family, our environments, and everything else that makes up our life."

And this piece of personal testimony, was greatly enjoyed: "Hahaha, I also think that a truly joyful person has element of ruthlessness that less happy people cannot even fathom."

Oh, I forgot, you're just being kind!

George

Post 91

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 3:20pm

Ah, Michael, I'd choose to work with a "bitter, lonely, rude, dull, yet brilliant workaholic" any time over some happy-go-lucky mediocres! Actually, this description would fit our last week's seminar speaker to a tee. But his talk on the origin of life was so bloody brilliant, I was completely blown away. I immediately forgave all his annoy habits. Whether he has a great sex life or friendship is really of no concern of me. ;-^

PS. Of course, a better personality is always an added value, but alas, that's something that's not always happen.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 2/04, 3:25pm)

Post 92

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 5:53pm

Michael and George,

I have to remind you two that we are talking specifically about "Objectivist Heroes" here. Think about the ideal heroes in Rand's novels: Cameron, Roark, Dagny, Rearden, Galt. Which of the following would describe them better if they were in real life:

1). "...bitter, lonely, rude, dull, yet brilliant workaholic..."
or
2). "...including a wonderful sex life combined with love, great friendships, enjoyment of the breaks we take from work, family, our environments, and everything else that makes up our life."

Gosh, Michael, look at what you wrote here. What a rosy picture!

Post 93

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 6:49pm

Hi Hong:

You didn't respond to my posts, so I am not sure what you thought of my hero description. Here are some of my reactions to your posts.

> you conveniently omitted those years of struggles, which at times were excruciatingly frustrating, agonizingly painful, and filled with despair and fear that I might eventually fail. It is not a matter of "right time, right place", it was pure brutal force hard work, with both mind and hands.

And I think that is commendable, to work so hard, and it speaks to many good qualities in you to endure that. But I don't think it *necessary* that someone has had a similar experience in order to achieve at the highest levels. I don't always think there is a period of "toughing it out," or "paying your dues" in a miserable "ends justifies the means' type of way. I had pangs about it when I was younger, because I knew that many of my classmates were working far harder than me and yet I performed at a higher level. When I won an opportunity to do my first year at Duke, there were certainly others who worked harder than me for it. I played on a softball team with one of the heads of surgery, and one night at his house, sitting out on his deck next to a firepit, having a beer, he was complimenting me on something I had done clinically, and I expressed thankfulness that I didn't have to endure the agony of the medical students on my team. He told me that he hadn't thought medical school was difficult, even the "brutal" residency years, because he was so excited about each new thing that happened. So for the first time (after many years of my dad wishing I had become a doctor) I saw that some people were just as excited about medicine as I was about language, that for them it was just as gratifying.

Just as I don't think hard work (even excruciating and agonizing work) is a *necessary* component for achieving hero status, I also don't think that flying through things with ease is necessary. The key to me is what it gets you. If you have to work hard for joy, then do it. If it comes more easily, relish it. What is absolutely necessary to be a hero is that a person is thrilled with his own life.

>I'd choose to work with a "bitter, lonely, rude, dull, yet brilliant workaholic" any time over some happy-go-lucky mediocres

Yes, sure, but this wasn't the choice MIchael offered. He said:

>bitter, lonely, rude, dull, yet brilliant workaholic or joyfully successful person in the art of living.

Being "joyfully successful" isn't the same thing as being a "happy-go-lucky mediocre," that's your spin. As I said before, I think there might be "bitter, lonely, rude, dull, yet brilliant workaholics" who may have done some really amazing work, but I would not elevate them to the stature of "hero" because however intelligent and driven, they are not living in a way that brings them satisfaction. If a person is a brilliant worker but it does not bring him happiness, who is he working for?

>Which of the following would describe them better if they were in real life:

I think that your second option describes them more accurately (with the possible exception of Cameron). Although Rand's characters are not the most fully developed beings, they also enjoyed their lives. Of the things I can recall about Howard Roark, some of the most significant descriptions that come to me are of him standing on a cliff's edge diving into water, lying beside the water, enjoying the feeling of grass against his fingers, walking through the woods, hiding out making love to Dominique. In Galt's Gulch you don't read about a bunch of nuts hanging out working feverishly - they are enjoying all the richness of life.

>Actually, this description would fit our last week's seminar speaker to a tee. But his talk on the origin of life was so bloody brilliant, I was completely blown away. I immediately forgave all his annoy habits. Whether he has a great sex life or friendship is really of no concern of me

But is this person one of your heroes?

>Gosh, Michael, look at what you wrote here. What a rosy picture!

Shouldn't any description of (an Objectivist) life be a rosy picture? What other kind of life is worth living? If you said that you had gone through so much hard work, achieved all that you have, and then that you were actually quite miserable at this point, I would find no value in that. What I find value in is that you did go through it and now you post here and have a nice life with a nice husband and a nice kid who listens to Mozart in the car with you. I don't know very much about you but the assumption I make until I am informed (or conclude on my own) about others (Objectivists particularly) is that they are leading way-better-than-average lives.
(Edited by Ashley Frazier
on 2/04, 6:56pm)

Post 94

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 7:05pm

Hong,

Well, it's a mixed bag on Cameron, Roark, Dagny, Rearden, Galt.

Hong's #1). "...bitter, lonely, rude, dull, yet brilliant workaholic..."

First of all, not a single one of these characters falls under the heading of dull. Secondly, everyone of them does fall under what most would call workaholics. And all of them were lonely to some degree and at different times of their lives. As for "rude" - they all appeared that way to the mediocrities and second handers, but never to each other.

Michael's #2). "...including a wonderful sex life combined with love, great friendships, enjoyment of the breaks we take from work, family, our environments, and everything else that makes up our life."

As to their wonderful sex lives combined with love, it depends, when they finally did have sex (it is often implied by Rand that many of these characters waited years on end), the sex was always presented as fantastic with a great depth of feeling/love that was always present. The rest of Michael's #2 is perfectly accurate of all of them: great friendships, enjoyment of breaks taken from work and their environments, and so forth...

All of this corresponds to the topic of 'sense of life', or of joy; but as far as the topic of "Objectivists Heroes" goes, you already know my thoughts on this. To me, reaching a neutral point from the bottom - does not make a hero, nor does doing 'better than average'. But this horse is well beaten now; let him rest in peace.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 2/04, 7:29pm)

Post 95

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 7:56pm

Hi Ashley,
Thank you so much for your responses to my posts!!

About your posts describing your feeling about your work and life I think it is absolutely wonderful that you enjoy everything so much and find your work such a rewarding experience. I guess working with children often has such influence on people. Though not on all people, I'd think. I myself are not particularly patient with children, and have to rely on threats, bribes, vicious voice, vicious facial expression, etc. to keep them in line. :-)

Yes, I have worked very hard for my whole life. I have to perhaps because I am either too stupid or have set a goal that's too high for me. I enjoyed some of the work and hated the others, but all are necessary for me to achieve my goals. I've known many people who by all standard are the most brilliant people you can find, and they worked no less harder than me, and some of them did achieved more. ;-). The fact that people enjoy their work does not necessarily mean that it is not hard work.

Ah, about what would constitute a hero, I think we have different standard or threshold for that, like what George said. I am perfectly happy to agree to disagree and to leave it at that.

Best,

Hong

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 2/04, 8:00pm)

Post 96

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 8:22pm

Hong wrote among other things: "Gosh, Michael, look at what you wrote here. What a rosy picture!"

About this one aspect of being a hero, though I thought I outlined three, implying that it was a triple whammy to be all three. Anyway, this one aspect of successful joyful hero is perhaps coming from a large degree from me as a painter. I don�t do comics. I have one shot at portraying an ideal per work. (I talk about my major works, not studies or sketches.) If a painter shows us a scene of pain, that pretty much sums up his view of life! A painting is not a novel where they may work their way through the problems. So I select those few moments that I think are the greatest states of existence I can experience and then project that through a figure and setting; a moment that vibrates with every fiber of my body "this is what I live for."
So what do I show? Lets say I will do a portrait of Hong....;) .....Her eyes are killing her from staring to long in a microscope, they are bloodshot, she has a pain in a her stooped back, a grimace on her face,...what else, yes dark purple shadows under her eyes... Everyone got the picture? That may show the result of heroic struggle but it is not showing a hero in painting.

Now change of scene, plastic white tight lab-suit...no no, that is not it, wrong art form, that is a xxx movie....ok change gears....

Light pouring in from a huge side window, chrome and white things everywhere, our perspective is right below eye level, we see past a dark abstract shape of the microscope, where Hong is looking towards our direction yet intensely at the microscope she has just backed away from it her mouth slightly open in sharp intake of breath, cheeks slightly flushed, and sparkling glints in her eyes�she has just found the right result, the "click", the eureka moment�and the awareness of that is infusing her body!

Now of the three examples, ahem, sorry, two examples�which one portrays an objectivist hero?

George you can take that to the bank!

Michael

(Edited by Newberry on 2/04, 8:24pm)

Post 97

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 8:39pm

Michael,
I don't even think that your hypothetical subject qualifies as an "Objective hero". Not wonder it doesn't feel right at all. Better not to waste any more time dreaming. Look elsewhere. ;-)

Post 98

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 9:10pm

Hi Hong:

You are obviously very intelligent, but I think also have a good sense of humor.

Maybe I am lucky to work with children. I never wanted to, and I enjoyed working with adults very much until I had a head injury. Now I can only stay ahead of 4 year olds :-)

After I wrote about my experience on Thursday, I have been "keeping track" of my *wow* moments, and one happened again on Friday morning before 11, as well. Maybe I should start keeping a Joy Journal to remind myself.

On Friday morning, I was showing a group of kids how to glue dyed pieces of macaroni to cards and how different combinations would equal the same weight to make a mobile (ie: the card with 10 pieces of macaroni weighs the same as two cards with 8 and 2). In any case, I had written the numbers 1-10 on cards and children were pasting the appropriate number of noodles on each one.

One of the teachers in the room started picking a boy's pieces off card #6 and said, "use all green for this one, you have 5 green and 1 pink."

Then to the next child: "spread them out evenly, you've got them all bunched up."

At which point I said: "Miss Liz, do you want to make your own mobile? Then you can put the noodles on however you want. These guys are doing fine."

And she said: "No, I just want them to look like yours."

"It doesn't matter if they look like mine. Only mine has to look like mine. He can make his look however he wants, as long as the right number of noodles are there his mobile will be balanced."

The teacher decided I didn't need her help and went to buy a soda, but I enjoyed seeing how each child, when left to his own devices, made something that he liked. In fact, when I started putting together the 5 greens, 1 pink kid's mobile, I saw that on each piece he had a single differently colored piece, and that the different color was the color that he used for the base color on the next number. How cool is that? Way cooler than imitating me.

Post 99

Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 3:41pm