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Post 20

Friday, February 24, 2006 - 11:54pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, John!

Yeah, both Hume and Mill ought both be raked over the coals. After all, it's the only way to test the robustness of their diatribes. Too much "philosophy" is done with a blanket acceptance of really "old" and really "popular" thought (yet neither of these 2 standards are applicable to actual merit in the realm of human thought). Age and popularity say nothing about merit, nothing. Here's a little ditty I picked up from badscience.com ...

Be very, very careful what you put into that head,
because you will never, ever get it out.

Thomas Cardinal Wolsey (1471-1530)


http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/BadScience.html

Ed



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Post 21

Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 7:47amSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Ed, for this thoughtful article on inductive inference.

There are two articles in my journal OBJECTIVITY directly relevant to your topic. If you or any reader of RoR would like to have a copy of these articles, write to me at the e-mail or the surface-mail address you find at the OBJECTIVITY website:
www.bomis.com/objectivity/

The first of these articles is my own "Induction on Identity" which appeared in 1991. This article is 69 pages. In the article, the author does the following:
              Contends that Rand's "Existence is Identity" is the basis of induction.
              Surveys the varieties of induction (ampliative, abstractive, mathematical).
              Examines closely the theory, of Nicolaus Autrecourt and of David  Hume, that causation is only
                   regularity and habituation; examines concomitant positions on the nature of material substance.
             Upholds identity as ground of all induction.
             Explains Mill's Methods in terms of Rand's axiom of identity 
             Explains the Hypotheical-Deductive method in terms of Rand's axiom of identity
             Distinguishes two kinds of identity within Rand's conception.
             Outlines a theory of predication based on identity.
             Includes an exposition of mathematical induction.

The second of these articles is Joseph Mixie's "Identity of Indiscernibles and Quantum Physics" which appeared in 1992. This article is 17 pages. In the article, the author does the following:
            Discusses Leibniz's principle of the identity of indiscernibles in application to physical objects,
                 from macroscopic objects to elementary particles.
            Distinguishes two forms of the principle: (1) "things having exactly the same properties are
                 identical, indeed, they are one thing" and (2) "things having exactly the same properties and
                 exactly the same external relations . . . are identical, indeed, they are one thing."
            Discusses the postulate of permutation invariance, which, with the theory of quantum mechanics
                 proper, implies that identical elementary particles be either fermions or bosons.
            Argues that Leibniz's principle, in the form (2), still stands; even for bosons and for fermions in the
                 same mixed state.



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Post 22

Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 11:42amSanction this postReply
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Good article, Ed.

Very good manner of highlighting conceptual common denominators from enumeration.

"Axioms in Applied Induction 101."

How's that for a course title?

//;-)

Michael



Post 23

Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 9:42pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Stephen. And, wow, you wrote a 69-pager on induction (is it $3 to get a copy?)!

Thanks, Michael ...

==============
"Axioms in Applied Induction 101."

How's that for a course title?
==============

Sounds good to me!

Ed

p.s. And thanks Reverend. Your compliment was so short and subtle, that it went over my head the first time!



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Post 24

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Dayaamm!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...

You stop that Reverend shit!

//;-)

Michael


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Post 25

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 7:07amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

In your article, you pose the rule:

A withholding of confident generalization until enough facts have been integrated so that you can deduce noted properties from the relations of fundamental particularities.

 

If I'm misunderstanding this rule, please correct me. As I understand you so far, I have a reservation.

 

Doesn't it seem that scientific generalizations are often reached, and put to work in science and technology, and yet there is nothing any deeper in nature---so far as we are aware---that explains the fact asserted in the generalization. I'm thinking of the principle of inertia, which Newton adopted as the first axiom of his mechanics for the Principia. That principle says that a body will remain at rest or in constant-speed, straight-line motion unless it is acted upon by a force. Descartes (and Galileo almost) was the first to arrive at this important principle. Getting the definition of force right was an accomplishment of Newton, but from then to now, the principle of inertia is a mighty good one.

 

Couldn't the principle of inertia be a justifiably confident generalization even though we haven't deduced it from "relations of fundamental particularities"? Among our justifiably confident generalizations, could they divide into a few different classes having different kinds of warranty?

 

[I know that in the case of the principle of inertia we do have something of a deeper explanation for it thanks to Einstein's General Relativity. But lets look at the principle as it looked before that, for the sake of illustration.]

 

       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Concerning getting a copy of my article "Induction on Identity", just let me know your surface-mail address, and I'll send it to you for free.

 

For the past several months, programmers have been working to put the full text of all twelve issues of OBJECTIVITY online. The writers are very pleased I'm finally having this done. This is an exact reprinting of the journal in the original typesetting and layout. This new site will be freely open to all readers and researchers.

 

It will be a few more months before Objectivity_Archive is completed. The critical path is the creation of a comprehensive Subject Index for the entire 1777 pages of the journal. Here is a sample entry to that index as it stood when the first four of the twelve issues had been indexed:

 

Induction V1N2 33–44, V1N3 1–51; Abstractive V1N2 36–37, 44; Ampliative V1N2 36–37, 41, 44, V1N3 15, 17, 21–32, 35–43, V1N4 15; and Categories V1N1 22, V1N3 13; and Concepts V1N1 29, 35–38, V1N2 36, 42–44; Consilience of V1N3 14, 38, 49; and Deduction V1N2 14, 29, 33–36, 40, V1N3 15, 31–32, 36–37, 40–41, 47–48, V1N4 33–34, 50; and Identity V1N2 33–35, 36–44, V1N3 5–16, 21–32, 35–43, 46–49, V1N4 27–28; Mathematical V1N2 41–42, V1N3 46–48; and Object Perception V1N3 7–8, 61; Reflective V1N4 50–52

 

 

Stephen


Post 26

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
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Thank you Stephen - there have been a number of publications which I wished could have been assessed, but lack of funds prevented me - this among them.... am glad now of the opportunity to peruse..

Post 27

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
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Stephen, I appreciate the inquiry.

While it's true that there are a variety of inductions used in life, and these inductions currently have a variety of levels of justification -- the example you gave, re: inertia, is free from your criticism of my wording. The paradox is solved by defining terms a little ...

inertia -- is a fundamental particularity

So, when you ask: "Couldn't the principle of inertia be a justifiably confident generalization even though we haven't deduced it from 'relations of fundamental particularities'? "

... I would answer that the "principle of inertia" successfully, and mechanically, explains motion -- though it is itself, irreducible to parts. 2 other examples of irreducible, fundamental particularities, would be "consciousness" -- which mechanically explains things like language, and knowledge transfer (things unique to humans); and "gravity" -- which mechanically explains celestial dynamics.


=================
Among our justifiably confident generalizations, could they divide into a few different classes having different kinds of warranty?
=================

This was an intriguing aspect of your induction essay. I'm curious to discover the answer, but I need more information -- and some time for reflection on data. At the moment, I am ignorant regarding any irreducible fundamentality to this potential differentiation of various "classes." I'll answer after performing more mental work. Would you please send me your article (so that I can get started)? My hotmail account address is available at:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Users/55.shtml

Thanks,

Ed


Post 28

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Stephen,

I just realized what you meant by "surface-mail" (surface of the Earth -- rather than a cyber-address)! And, if I hadn't earlier resolved not to provide my home address to individuals I that haven't met, I would still be interested. That said, let me see what can be resolved from our discussion so far. In response to my benchmark requirement of having to get into the position where one can then deduce properties from fundamentals, you wrote ...

==============
Doesn't it seem that scientific generalizations are often reached, and put to work in science and technology, and yet there is nothing any deeper in nature---so far as we are aware---that explains the fact asserted in the generalization. 
==============

As a follow-up, you cite the "principle of inertia" which -- at least at the time it was first accepted and extensively utilized -- didn't have an explanation, other than its noted universality (being true of all things; no exceptions).

One method of response for me here would be to challenge you to provide the "why" explanation of shared valence electrons in chemical bonding (what "deeper" issue makes THAT omnipresent particularity hold?) -- or I could challenge you to provide the "why" explanation to the position-path-identity of the planet Venus (why is this planet the self-same thing, when it is in a different location?). Are these "why" explanations really necessary? The Venus example is easily justified by appeal to axioms (as stated in the essay). The chemical bonding requires a longer chain of reasoning, but do you challenge that chain?

Do you see where this type of reasoning leads (the argument from infinite regression)? It implicitly champions a requirement for omniscience, in order for justified induction to get off of the ground. The answer is that, because of the axioms, you don't always HAVE to, perpetually, delve deeper into nature -- in order to veridically generalize. An obvious counterfactual would be quite illuminative here: No living flea is heavier than any living elephant.

The REASON that this statement is true, a reason which has to do with the nature of fleas and elephants, is that cell size doesn't remarkably change (the number of cells required to form all of the elephant organs, etc. -- could NEVER be brought down to the size approaching that of a flea). This uniformity of cell size, a fundamental particularity of cells, restricts what type of material (organs, etc) can be realized in what type of body size. But [thinking] this is not the best example to illustrate my point, the best example would be the easiest ...

You have 2 dice, and you want to generalize what kind of outcomes you'd get by rolling them. A veridical generalization that can be made -- true for all past, present, and future rolls -- would be that you won't ever get 13. The reason you won't is because of the mechanics of dice rolling. Nothing "deeper in nature" need be understood here -- just this one, limiting, mechanic.

You don't have to understand the positive probabilities of various outcomes in dice rolling, for instance -- in order to understand that you'll never roll a 13. You don't even have to understand the physics behind that last turn of the dice (where the momentum is reduced to a point where the kinetic energy will not carry the center of gravity over the pivot point of the edge of the dice). You require one thing: limiting mechanics.

Perhaps I should have titled the essay: Veridical Induction via Mechanical Limitations?

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 2/26, 8:55pm)


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Post 29

Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 7:16amSanction this postReply
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Since this thread was made, my 1991 essay Induction on Identity
has become available on the web.

Also, this cool study: A Proof of Induction?
Alexander George
Philosophers’ Imprint V7N2 (March 2007)



Post 30

Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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I'm posting a wonderful short article, submitted by a member, about this tomorrow.

Post 31

Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
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In # 28 above, I said this:
You have 2 dice, and you want to generalize what kind of outcomes you'd get by rolling them. A veridical generalization that can be made -- true for all past, present, and future rolls -- would be that you won't ever get 13. The reason you won't is because of the mechanics of dice rolling. Nothing "deeper in nature" need be understood here -- just this one, limiting, mechanic.

You don't have to understand the positive probabilities of various outcomes in dice rolling, for instance -- in order to understand that you'll never roll a 13. You don't even have to understand the physics behind that last turn of the dice
And after reading a little bit of John McCaskey on the subject, I realize that I was pitting Aristotle's formal cause against material and efficient cause -- which, in retrospect, was the proper thing for me to being doing (i.e., I was being "correct"). By saying that you do not need to understand the physics, I was properly removing the historical standard of using the search for an efficient cause as the method of justification of induction (something which perhaps 99% of all practicing scientists are guilty of).

You could search for all of the different ways that you could get a given result from different materials or differential (e.g., experimental) recruitments of physical invariants -- which is what the current scientists do -- and, alternatively, you can generalize without having to go through all of that tedious experimental work. Of course, you can't take this easy way out all of the time, because not enough may be currently known about the identity of the subject. In those cases, you need to let science give you a head start on things first.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/20, 9:40am)


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