RoR: Forum

This article struck a nerve with me. I, too, became an Eagle Scout shortly before my 18th birthday back in 1984. At the time, I still accepted and practiced Christianity and homophobia. I have since matured and overcome both faulty belief systems, though the homophobia took longer than the Christianity.

If the BSA could show a strong correlation between homosexuality and child molesting, they could at least make a case to exclude gays for the sake of protecting the boys. I do not think they can show such a correlation. In any case, their argument that a homosexual orientation has intrinsically immoral qualities lacks merit. Their argument against secularism has even less merit because arguments for faith in God are even more specious than arguments about the risks of attempting to tent gays with straights.

Rather than use the gay objector as an example, why not use an atheist or agnostic? I saw a would-be Eagle Scout speak at an atheist convention a few years ago. The board refused to award him the title when they learned of his atheism. They gave him a week to pick a religion of the monotheistic variety. He refused to comply, so they refused to award him. Read more here:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/31/atheist.scout.ap/

You could write a tightly worded article about the silliness and unreason of faith and then use this young man as your example of how the BSA worships unreason. Their worship of unreason could then segue into their irrational homophobia. You might also want to mention Scouting for All:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/31/atheist.scout.ap/

I have not studied this site deeply enough to say whether I agree with all its statements, however.

Numerous freethought activist groups have sought to end government funding of certain BSA activities with mixed results. Check the Scouting for All site for more on that.

Post 1

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 5:35am

As a born again atheist, telling the BSA to go to hell is inconsistent with your own beliefs and therefore weakens your argument. You need a secular equivalent to hell... (Wal-Mart?)

Post 2

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 7:01am

Achieving the rank of Eagle Scout is a great honor, something you worked hard for. I am of the opinion that when something is wrong within an organization that one is associated with, it's often more productive to speak out against it from the inside, rather than from outside. Pressure from the inside is more effective. Don't give up your ranking. Use it to facilitate change from within.

Post 3

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 7:19am

Teresa, if they automatically expel atheists, how will any atheist be able to speak from inside the BSA?

The best for which one could hope would be a number of articulately persuasive liberal religionists speaking inside the BSA for inclusion of secularists and gays.

Post 4

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 8:01am

Ack! I didn't know they "expelled" atheists! Now I understand Mitchell's emphasis.

Post 5

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 6:21pm

Luke,

I understand what you are saying about writing against their expulsion of atheists, but it is primarily a religious organization. To take on that aspect of the BSA would be to take on all religion. I don't have a problem with religious people (if they are tolerant and no tooo boring) and I think we can get along as far as overlapping consensus goes. What I do have a problem with is policies of irrational fear and hatred that can result from religion (or any other organization of irrational thought even secular.) These are more important to face and defeat first. But, good point about their worship of unreason.

And Teresa,

It is interesting that you think it is ok to remain in the BSA and fight within when I have ideas contrary to the Boy Scouts concerning gays, but not if I am an atheist. They are both important and an individual who disagrees with either tenant cannot remain in an organization that habitually discriminates against their own kind. To remain in an organization is to condone it. As a former Eagle I can probably do as much to change the Scouts as I could if I remained an Eagle anyway.

Post 6

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 5:36am

Mitchell, you might want to contact your local United Church of Christ for help with writing your article. They are very tolerant of homosexuals and can help you to address this issue within the BSA's framework. While I remain leery of accepting mystical principles as a basis for argument, I can see that you want incremental change and that virtually demands an initial acceptance of their religious framework.

From http://www.ucc.org/aboutus/firsts.htm comes this notable passage:

1972: Ordination of first openly gay minister

The UCC's Golden Gate Association ordains the first openly gay person as a minister in a mainline Protestant denomination: the Rev. William R. Johnson. In the following three decades, General Synod urges equal rights for homosexual citizens and calls on congregations to welcome gay, lesbian and bisexual members.

Perhaps this will help you. As for the acceptance of atheists, they might offer some insight into that as well.

Post 7

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 7:24am

Luke,
I don't think that being tolerant of a group of people while at the same time trying to create incremental change means that I have to accept their religious framework. I don't see the connection. But, trying to counter the religious homophobia problem by tearing down religion seems to be unrealistic. You could liken it to the Libertarian problem. Libertarians want their entire platform now. They are unwilling to work on incremental change because, I guess, they think it an affront to their integrity. I don't think it is though, and one must incrementally change a society to get anywhere at all. Whereas the libertarians haven't been able to change much of anything with their all or nothing attitude.
The United Church of Christ seems interesting and I'll check it out.

Post 8

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 8:03am

I meant that your arguments -- not your personal beliefs -- would have to square with the BSA's acceptance of monotheism. You might be able to escape any mention of religion or God in your article. But if you want to appeal to the core supporters of the BSA, you would have to show how their opposition to gays does not square with their other beliefs about how they ought to treat people.

You could show, for example, how Jesus loved all sinners and then point to churches like the one I just mentioned as modern embodiments of that love. You could cull examples from other major religions the BSA represents as well. Perhaps you could make the same argument for accepting atheists into BSA.

I am still not comfortable with this approach. But as you and I both know, incremental change must necessarily happen this way. The main downside is that it could wrongly validate other false beliefs like the God concept.

Given your atheism, it might behoove you to recruit a believer to co-write the article in question. Contact Americans United for Separation of Church and State via http://www.au.org for such a coalition.

Post 9

Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:36pm

Luke:

You wrote...

The board...gave him [an Eagle Scout who spoke at an atheist convention] a week to pick a religion of the monotheistic variety.

Well, there goes Hinduism. But, in light of the present times, I must ask: Were Mohammedanism or the underground polygamous-Mormonism allowed options?

Just curious if there are 'limits' also on their specified requirements.

LLAP
J:D

Post 10

Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 2:54pm

They said that even Mother Nature was an acceptable option, but it had to be a "Higher Power" in any case.

Post 11

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 5:57pm

Luke:

    I really don't wish to beat a dead horse, but, I thought that the BSA was supposedly a 'Christian' oriented group. Ok; I can accept their stretching the idea of a belief in some 'higher power' as a requirement, but, after reading...

   http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/9363363/inside_scientology?rnd=1142991247375&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.1069

    ...where Scientologists 'sit on the boards of the Rotary Club, the Chamber of Commerce and the Boy Scouts', it makes me wonder if, since Xenu's accepted as a 'higher power', would belonging to Wicca or a Satanist group be acceptable?

    For that matter, would acceptance of REASON as a 'higher power' (higher than one is capable of being, without it!) be acceptable? --- Maybe I should ask the BSA itself, but, given this thread and my having no personal bone to pick with them, thought I'd throw these ideas out as something to think about for some who may wish to later (re-)challenge the BSA on this line.

LLAP
J:D

Post 12

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 6:58pm

For that matter, would acceptance of REASON as a 'higher power' (higher than one is capable of being, without it!) be acceptable?

Wow - now THAT is stretching...... lol..... love it.

Post 13

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 5:51am

John, I doubt the BSA would accept reason as a "higher power" but feel free to ask the BSA yourself.

Post 14

Thursday, September 1, 2011 - 7:29am