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Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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Marty -- While I find the motives of religious people I deal with to me mixed -- some good, some not -- your point about the true believes is on the mark. I heard a debate late last year between a fundamentalist preacher and George Smith. Needless to say, George did great, mainly pointing out the inconsistencies and illogic of the god-as-first-cause argument.

But the preacher had mentioned that god creates the moral law and it's our choice whether to obey it or not.

I asked him, "If god created the moral law, why does he torture to death innocent children with cancer and terrible diseases?" (I pointed to children sitting in the audience.) I asked "Doesn't this suggest that your god is really an evil demon and that his worst evil is to seduce people into accepting such evil?" He started babbling about the promises of god to the Children of Israel but I kept asking "Why does god, who is the author of moral law and justice, torture innocent children to death?" Needless to say I never got an answer.


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Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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When I was a child, I read, in Genesis, about the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, when god asked him to do so.


I remember when I was a child and I read or heard that story about Abraham and Isaac, I already knew that there was something terribly wrong here. That God at the last moment spared Isaac is hardly relevant, the fact that Abraham was willing to kill his son just to show that he was perfectly obedient to God, and that that was what God wanted Abraham to do is so unspeakably evil that even people like Hitler and Stalin seem benevolent in comparison to God. I wonder how modern Christians can deal with such terrible sadism and power lust of their God and then still call him the "God of love". Is there a psychologist in the room?

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Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
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About female circumcision in Islamic countries.

I hope they never find out about the the G spot!!!
Needless to say what they would do to those poor women.
lol
CD


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Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
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I saw a movie with the Abraham and Issac issue... as a result the child questioning it (a jew) became both an athiest and a neo nazi.

Based somewhat on a real story.

---Landon


Post 4

Sunday, April 9, 2006 - 5:37amSanction this postReply
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I suppose someone should play the "Devil's" advocate }:D

...female circumcision in Islamic countries...is truly evil...true believers will do just about anything if it is the will of their deity


It can't be attributed primarily to religion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision

I read, in Genesis, about the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, when god asked him to do so. I wondered if this might happen to me - if it was the will of god. I hoped that my dad would defy god and protect me.


Did you remember reading how God miraculously made Abraham's wife fertile for him? How God tested Abrahms faith, and punished Sarah for laughing at the prophets who told her she would be pregnant? Isaac was a miracle from God, so its reasonable to assume Abraham knew God had a good reason to test him.

My feeling of security was diminished.


Both Abraham and Isaac's faith was increased - Isaac learned his father took God seriously, and that God could miraculously save even in hopeless circumstances.

I then learned about the Holocaust and was told by a rabbi that it was the will of god (whose motives are not always apparent).


There is God's preferential and permissive will:

http://www.bible.org/qa.asp?topic_id=15&qa_id=489

More insecurity! Perhaps god will do something bad to me. I asked a rabbi how god could let a small child die and was told that it might be a means of punishing the parents.


Rabbis do not have a monopoly on fear-mongering for self-interest. Bad government and doctors make their victims more dependent and sicker for money and power too. I suspect their are far more bad politicians and doctors than rabbis.

Oh boy!!! Therapists of the world rejoice. Religious teachings will keep you busy for years to come.


I suspect there are no small number of "therapy" victims, ritalin, anti-depressant and other toxic drug victims that will keep rabbis in business for a long while too!

(Turning off Devil-advocate mode)

Seriously, when I see weak arguments being made, I'll take the opposing case so you know what you might be up against.

Good arguments could be made on the arbitrary ability to abuse the bible by spinning context. I would make the case how religions rely on good interpretation to pick the appropriate allegories. No different than I-Ching, or fortune cookies, or chicken entrails. Well, perhaps a bit better and less ambiguous.

When you identify particular religious offenses which are found in other sectors - genital mutilation, destructive obedience to tradition, authority and consensus, fear-mongering, et, your objection to religion as the culprit falls flat.

Finally, advocate something - like how reason, rational morality and independence liberates and increases efficacy by allowing analysis, rather than resorting to prayer and search for an appropriate bible-metaphor to guide actions.

Scott

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Sunday, April 9, 2006 - 5:45amSanction this postReply
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Oops, the Devil forgot one more apology for God, regarding why evil is allowed to afflict the good;

1. God won't be blackmailed;

For instance, Hitler decides to test God. He will wipe a certain village off the map unless God gives him what he demands. If God concedes, God becomes a tool of Hitler.

2. Incrementalism will result, to the end people will accuse God of cruelty until they are having their every whim satisfied (really, another form of blackmail - God is cruel if he isn't making me happy). And it is obvious many wealthy people are chronically dissatisfied, while many poor and afflicted develope strong character and satisfaction by overcoming their afflictions.

3. God is consistent on acting on principle, which is to bring about his end through his actors without distraction.

Scott

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Sunday, April 9, 2006 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Ciro, I believe it is the G-spot that they are trying rid the woman of. I think they are trying to make sure women don't get any sexual pleasure. But they fail miserably. My understanding is they can still come to orgasm during sex, even without what is taken away. (Thanks Dr.Drew)

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Sunday, April 9, 2006 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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Actually it's the "c-spot" (clitoris) the g-spot is internal and would require more surgery than most would be capable of without it being fatal. I've heard in general it's specifically designed to make sex almost unbarably painful for a woman.

---Landon


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Sunday, April 9, 2006 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Seriously, when I see weak arguments being made, I'll take the opposing case so you know what you might be up against.

Scot,

My article was not meant to be an argument against religion. Such an argument requires a lengthy philosophical discussion. I was sharing an observation or two about some of the harmful consequences of religion. 

-Marty 


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Wednesday, July 3, 2013 - 5:24amSanction this postReply
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Almost as hideous are the adolescent girls who willingly concede to this surgery as a tribal symbol of entry into womanhood despite the clear absence of any medical benefit. This raises other questions about the medical benefits of male circumcision. We had a lengthy discussion about this many years ago on this forum.

I drew the inescapable conclusion that male circumcision rivals female circumcision in its evil.

In a time and place where good hygiene practices are affordable and widespread, I cannot think of a single good medical reason to circumcise a healthy male. There are some medical conditions that require it, but they are rare. Like the women who choose preemptive mastectomies because of their high personal likelihood of developing breast cancer, anyone choosing circumcision should only make such a radical choice for well-informed medical reasons, not superstitious tribal ones.

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