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Post 20

Saturday, September 2, 2006 - 9:41pmSanction this postReply
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Let me rewrite my final comment in Post 16 for clarity. I see where it could be misunderstood.

(See how easy that was? Easy but not rational at all. Certainly not moral. I'll take the honest thinker of the original article, myself. I trust him.)

Michael


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Post 21

Sunday, September 3, 2006 - 11:33amSanction this postReply
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Mike E,

You got it!

KASS really means "kiss-ass."

Robert Campbell

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Post 22

Tuesday, September 5, 2006 - 6:01amSanction this postReply
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When the Hizbullah initially kidnapped the Israeli soldiers, the event that seems to have sparked the current crisis, I was traveling in Europe with only the International Herald Tribune, CNN, BBC and some German newscasts available to keep me up to snuff. I also had a chance to talk with several people from the region itself.
The "current crisis" was just an ongoing chapter in a bigger crisis that has been going since the 1920's. At this point, it is nearly impossible to tell who started it. I have determined that there is no good guy who deserves my support. Since I live in America, it is irrelevant.
These days there is hardly a conflict in the world that one can afford to ignore, if only because the price of something or other is bound to be affected, even if one can live with all the misery these events spawn for thousands of people.
I would love to ignore it. Unfortunately, Israel has a lobby here. Since this is a government ruled by lobbyists, my tax money is wasted on these adventures.

This is one big difference. As far as I know, Hezbollah doesn't spend any time or money bribing American senators and congress-critters. I know that Israel does.
So I continued to check into my highly suspect news sources—suspect because even an amateur could tell how slipshod and often mainly sensational the coverage was—so as to keep abreast of unfolding events.
Most war coverage is sensational.
"You know, Richard (she calls me by my middle name), I have never liked the Jews, but recently I have begun to wonder why it is that so many people around the world begrudge them that tiny plot of land they got back in the 1940s."
You could say the same thing about the people who established Apartheid in South Africa.
"I have been watching television news throughout the recent upheaval (indeed, she can do little else but that and read, given that she is physically quite frail), and have noticed that nearly all the commentators, including reporters, seem to favor the Hizbullah even though they were the ones who started all of this."
I'm curious as to how Hezbollah started it. Hezbollah was formed as a result of Israel's invasion of Lebanon back in the 1980's.
Everything I read and listened to about the conflict kept emphasizing the collateral victims in Lebanon, produced from Israeli shellings, with hardly any reminders that (a) the Hizbullah initiated the conflict and (b) the Hizbullah routinely locate themselves—their artillery and inventory of weapons—within the Lebanese civilian population so that efforts at placating them and any retaliation could not but do damage to these civilians.
Hezbollah's presence is mainly in Southern Lebanon. Israel's response was to attack all of Lebanon, including many Christians who supported them BEFORE these attacks occured.

(Edited by Chris Baker on 9/05, 1:55pm)


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Post 23

Tuesday, September 5, 2006 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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I consider Chris Baker's post way off but I haven't the time to address all this again. My initial column speaks for itself. (To compare Israel with South Africa during its apartheid period is really a deal-breaker for me, not even worth discussing!)

Post 24

Tuesday, September 5, 2006 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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To compare Israel with South Africa during its apartheid period is really a deal-breaker for me, not even worth discussing!
The one who initially  made this comparison was Archbishop Desmond Tutu. He should know. Go here:

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0516-01.htm

FOR YEARS, critics have compared Israeli policies in the occupied territories to the old South African apartheid system. Now more mainstream figures — such as Zbigniew Brzezinski, the Canadian-born former U.S. National Security Adviser, and South African anti-apartheid stalwarts Bishop Desmond Tutu and author Breyten Breytenbach — are drawing the parallel. Members of the 80,000-strong Jewish community in South Africa have joined the debate as well.
 
Not In My Name, a declaration written by two leading Jewish anti-apartheid activists, Ronnie Kasrils and Max Ozinksi, and signed by 220 Jews, acknowledges Israeli security concerns but, as reported in The Guardian newspaper, adds:
 
"It becomes difficult, from a South African perspective, not to draw parallels with the oppression expressed by Palestinians under the hand of Israel and the oppression experienced in South Africa under apartheid rule."

(Edited by Chris Baker on 9/05, 2:03pm)


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Post 25

Tuesday, September 5, 2006 - 8:30pmSanction this postReply
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Many, many Palestinians belong to a religious group whose leaders are on record wanting to annihilate Israel and Jews and Americans because they have give support to them. And they raise their children to embrace the hostility to Israel. 
I would not argue that Israel's system of laws accords with the principles of the US Declaration, classical liberal due process, etc.  But neither do the laws of France, Germany, the UK, and hundreds of other countries do this. But as a rule the victims of apartheid were people of color, with no adherence to some particular religious or philosophical view; apartheid was racist. That isn't the case with Palestinians, to the best of my understanding. They are a group by virtue of their chosen beliefs and these include wiping out Israel. So apartheid and the security measures against Palestinians are very different policies from a moral/political standpoint.


Post 26

Wednesday, September 6, 2006 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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And many of these Zionists have said that they want to restore Israel to its borders of Biblical times. This is much larger than what Israel currently is. Sheldon Richman has an excellent comment on his blog:

American commentators seem ignorant of or blind to Israeli attacks on civilians—such as those carried out repeatedly in Egypt, Gaza, and Jordan in the 1950s and 1960s, and, with even greater frequency, against civilians in the occupied territories and Lebanon in the 1970s, 1980s and today. Nor do US observers or "terrorism experts" seem to be aware of the abuse of Muslim and Christian civilians during the 1948 war, such as the mass expulsions at gunpoint of the inhabitants of Lydda, Ramle and a large number of other Palestinian villages. (See Benny Morris's new book, 1948 and After: Israel and the Palestinians.) It took the fullscale invasion of Lebanon and the ghastly bombardment of Beirut in 1982 to get the media to notice, even briefly. Since then, they have lapsed into their previous pattern.
Many, many Palestinians belong to a religious group whose leaders are on record wanting to annihilate Israel and Jews and Americans because they have give support to them. And they raise their children to embrace the hostility to Israel.
And many Israelis want to annihilate them, along with Lebanese Christians. Consider also the actions of the Stern Gang, who actually wanted to collaborate with the Nazis against the British in WW2. Consider the actions of Irgun, a group which included Monachem Begin. Irgun bombed the King David Hotel in 1946. Some Israelis actually celebrated the 60th anniversary of this bombing earlier this year. They also bombed a British embassy in Rome and assassinated a minister in Cairo in 1944.

The Zionists have taken violence outside of Israel for many years now, so their actions in Lebanon should come as no surprise. What is still amazing is that they still have so many apologists, especially on a board called "rebirth of reason."
I would not argue that Israel's system of laws accords with the principles of the US Declaration, classical liberal due process, etc.
They don't even come close.
But neither do the laws of France, Germany, the UK, and hundreds of other countries do this.
Some of these countries, however, are not constantly picking fights. Israel is and is encouraged to do so by the corrupt men in the District of Criminals.
That isn't the case with Palestinians, to the best of my understanding. They are a group by virtue of their chosen beliefs and these include wiping out Israel.
When you consider what Israel does, can you blame them?
So apartheid and the security measures against Palestinians are very different policies from a moral/political standpoint.

Many apologists for slavery in America used to think the same way. After Nat Turner's rebellion, they feared that if slaves were freed, the newly freed slaves would rise up and kill all the white people. Something like that had occurred in Haiti.

That wasn't a justification for slavery. It's certainly not a justification for what is going on Israel now.

The first thing Israel should do is embrace free market principles. But that won't happen. A free market would bring about peace, commerce, and good relations among the different groups there. A free market goes against the principles of Zionism, which are inherently collectivist.

(Edited by Chris Baker on 9/06, 11:29pm)


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Post 27

Wednesday, September 6, 2006 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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Done with this--smacks too much like the anti-Semitic vitriol I heard all around Europe in my childhood. Everything bad is due to the Jews. I am really shocked to find this here.

Post 28

Wednesday, September 6, 2006 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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I will just give the words of David Ben-Guiron:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978

(Edited by Chris Baker on 9/06, 8:39pm)


Post 29

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 3:34amSanction this postReply
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Chris, we could find more than two quotes from Muslims that are at least as bad as those, and about 50 years more current...

Post 30

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 5:48amSanction this postReply
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Chris, we could find more than two quotes from Muslims that are at least as bad as those, and about 50 years more current..
I am sure you can, so what's the point?

I found this from 2001:

http://utenti.lycos.it/Delenda_Carthago/israel_010904.html

(Edited by Chris Baker on 9/07, 6:08am)


Post 31

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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I am sure you can, so what's the point?
If there was no point to my statement, that means there was no point to yours, ie, your quotes are pointless. That was my point.

Post 32

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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If there was no point to my statement, that means there was no point to yours, ie, your quotes are pointless. That was my point.
And as you think your statement and whether or not it had a point, you may find yourself thinking more about points and what you can do with them. What is a point anyway? Perhaps points are everywhere, and a point is just something that you see before your eyes and process with every part of your mind.

It could be, but then you see the screen before your eyes and you feel your heart beating. You realize that there is a greater world out there, and that such issues take a great deal of effort to understand. There is always new information to discover.

But then you find yourself in complete harmony with the world around you. Contradictions don't exist, and you are at peace.


Post 33

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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You crack me up...

Post 34

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
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You crack me up
Maybe we can get all the king's horse and all the king's men to put you back together again.


Post 35

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 5:44amSanction this postReply
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Chris Baker is quite vocal with his criticisms of Israel. Isn't it astounding he can find nothing to criticize Palestinians or Muslims? Let me help you, Chris, just a little.

If Palestinians and Muslims had their way, there would be another Holocaust.

If Palestinians and Muslims had their way, he would live under sharia law.

Many Muslims have much in common with Nazis. They believe themselves to be superior to other people simply because they are Muslims. They believe infidels are not worthy of living and should be killed or at least oppressed.

Is it Israelis or Palestinians who brainwash their children with Islam and encourage them to become suicide bombers and then glorify and financially reward their families when they do?

Education in Palestinian schools consists of only the Koran (along with hatred of and lies about non-Muslims).

Try rating both the Jewish Israeli population and the Palestinian population on their adherence to the Objectivist virtues.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton
on 9/08, 6:06am)


Post 36

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 7:44amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

This is all basically true. What is your point?


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Post 37

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 8:01amSanction this postReply
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Chris Baker asked, "What is your point?"

Your comments on the conflict have been extremely biased and thus not objective.



Post 38

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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Your comments on the conflict have been extremely biased and thus not objective. 
I am biased. I am refuting myths.

It's clear to me that this is a war of evil against evil. The evils are different in some respects, but neither is worthy of my support or sympathy.

What do you accomplish by attempting to sanctify one of the participants?


Post 39

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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Chris Baker:

What do you accomplish by attempting to sanctify one of the participants?

I'm not attempting to "sanctify" anything. I do respect a Jewish Israeli's right to life, which many Palestinians and Muslims do not. Most Palestinians and many Muslims do not know the meaning of "live and let live."



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