About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
If this is so, then the fact that many Europeans crave the long vacation - wouldn't they then, during that vacation, be productive to that which they do enjoy, instead of loafing?   I do agree that most over here do enjoy what they do for a living, in that it is an honorableness to being productive, rather than the attitude that it is a 'necessary evil' - but I wonder at how Europeans honorably view productivity.

Post 1

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 9:11amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Machan's comments are spot on, however I would like to add one comment. There are many people who have enjoyed working hard all their lives but upon retirement have no other interests to occupy themselves. I think this is especially true for those who have spent their lives in the military. A well rounded person should have a diversity of interests and a young person should develop a variety of skills to provide more than one arrow for his bow in case of unexpected adversity.

By the way, I have never observed the Europeans criticizing the American work ethic when it comes to international aid.

Sam


Post 2

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 9:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Americans cannot relax, while Europeans can. Americans are workaholics, while Europeans have a more sensible approach to work.
Europeans also save more money. The increased work hours for Americans show little or no increase in productivity.
And maybe, just maybe, the average American, whoever that might be, is more like that -- he or she actually likes doing work and doesn't crave idleness too much. Does this have to do with some malady like workaholism? I seriously doubt it.
A great deal of it nowadays comes from maxing-out-the-credit-card-ism. When I tell people that I have a savings, they are shocked. One of my good friends lost her $80,000-per-year job a few years ago, but hardly had any money when she did. This was in spite of the fact that she was single. Where does all this money go?
If they did indeed manage to find a line or work or career that is self-satisfying, that fulfills their hopes for matching their preferences and talents, why would they be looking for work that gives them so much time off?
Some of them may have other interests. Heinlein made the observation that "specialization is for insects." I have often said to people that I have the "Bo Jackson Syndrome."
Some would say, well the only reason American workers do not, on average, have a good deal of vacation time is that labor unions in America are relatively weak and aren't able to bargain forcefully enough to give their members the benefits they would really like.
Unions have done little or nothing for workers in the past 50 years.
Perhaps most American workers do not see the employer-employee relationship along adversarial dimensions but see it as more of a win-win situation instead of a zero-sum game.
Have you ever worked for a dishonest or corrupt employer in the real world?
It may even be that those being hired by others regard themselves as joining a company instead of being conscripted by some alien force.
Actually, many people simply settle. They settle because they have bills to pay. I have been working contracts for two years myself. It has paid the bills adequately, but I'm extremely dissatisfied. I have been settling in this industry for basically seven years now.

Here's a little story I heard. It's second-hand, but still quite believable. A pilot was a captain with Braniff, UPS, and Continental. Then he took a co-pilot's job to get on Southwest.

What made him take a demotion to work for Southwest? Could it be that Southwest has built a reputation for being an honest and fair company in its 35 years of existence in one of the most crooked industries in America? Could it be because Southwest has been profittable every since 1973? Could it be that Southwest sincerely cares about its employees and has never had any layoffs?

One thing I have learned is that every employer gets what he, she, or they deserve. Southwest has been reaping the rewards of that good will for many years and will continue to do so.
The normal circumstances of business, meaning those not contaminated by a bunch of Marxian ideology, may well be cooperation and friendly competition, not acrimony and hostility. Just consider that in athletics there is a good deal of competition that's vigorous as well as civilized, friendly even.
That's news to me. Many businessmen are corporate-welfare statists. Braniff was constantly using political pull to try screw over Southwest in the 1970's. American still is. Just look at how several airlines were working to keep Virgin America from being launched here in the USA. Braniff and Continental kept Southwest in the courts for almost four years before they took off.

Richard Branson wrote in his book Losing My Virginity that British Airways used to call up Virgin Atlantic's customers and tell them that their flights had been cancelled. He sued them at least once. Other people warned him that he would be suing them.
Indeed, if the socialist notion that people who hire us must want to exploit us, take unfair advantage of us, hadn't gained prominence over the last two hundred years
For some of us, this notion is based on real-life experience.
As with all generalizations about human affairs, there are many exceptions here but, all in all, it seems more reasonable to see the working habits of most Americans as characterized by a kind of love of their work, thus their vacation habits shaped by this rather than some kind of conspiracy theory.
How much time have you spent actually talking to people in the real world? I'm in information technology and know many people who are extremely dissatisfied. Many people have already left the industry and found an industry with less drama. I know very few people who love their work.

By the way, academia is NOT the real world.


Post 3

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm also in information technology AND health care, at the same time.  Both fields have a huge amount of stress.  I love my job and truly enjoy the work I do.  Wanting time away from it has nothing to do with feeling exploited or not liking my work.  It has everything to do with needing to lower my stress level to remain healthy, to give my mind a rest when it is about to explode.  Fortunately, I work for a great company that is generous with time off and a boss who allows me to telecommute frequently.  I can't complain, but I do relish my vacations and wouldn't mind more of them.

Post 4

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Stress often doesn't come from the job itself. It often comes from other dramas which occur in many workplaces.

For me, a big source of stress is wasting time in a bunch of meetings. I have long believed that meetings exist to make managers feel important. They have purpose, sometimes. Often, they go way too long or are too frequent.

In information technology, the drama often comes from your co-workers. The amount of backstabbing that I have seen in some workplaces would be enough to drive anybody out of the place.

I have not been in health care, but have heard from nurses that the nursing shortage almost solely has to do with the doctors and their various attitudes. Many techies probably aren't much different.


Post 5

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 2:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, workplace drama is an issue, and now that you have brought that up I can see how it's definitely possible for me to categorize my "stressors" as either related to the field or related to the drama.  You mention the attitudes of physicians.  That's probably one of the biggest complaints of working in health care, and the docs are not picky about who they abuse, be it nurses or techs or support staff or the cafeteria lady - drama.  There's also a butt-load of paperwork involved in health care which can go in the "field-related stressor" bucket.  As for IT, technology becomes obsolete so quickly and the learning curve for new technology can be quite steep making it difficult to keep up, so there's another "field-related stressor".

Anyhoo, the whole point is still that my need for vacations doesn't neccessarily have anything at all to do with whether or not I enjoy my work. 

I'd also like to add that vacations are not always for leisure.  I can't tell you the number of times I've taken a day or two off (or 5 months) because my son needed time with me or because I had a family obligation or because that house was just not going to paint itself.  Sometimes it's a matter of necessity.


Post 6

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There's also a butt-load of paperwork involved in health care which can go in the "field-related stressor" bucket.
You can blame the socialists and the lawyers for that one.

Like health care, my profession also has a great deal of CYA (cover your ass) work.

I am glad that it requires you to keep yourself sharp. I want it to be that way. The trouble is that bad management is an epidemic in the profession.

For many, vacation is family time. More and more people live hundreds of miles from their families.

I have also had a couple personal trainers tell me that you should take off a week from the gym about twice a year. Is it not the same with your job?

(Edited by Chris Baker on 9/07, 3:25pm)


Post 7

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Oh lawd, please don't get me started on CYA work!! 

We are obviously cut from the same cloth when it comes to this particular topic, Chris.  Do you have any theories on the bad management in IT thing?  I totally agree, but can't for the life of me figure out why that is so.  Could it be that IT educations do not focus enough on that?  I finally in the last year and a half have a dream of a boss, excellent leader and manager.  Her education and background were NOT in the IT field. 


Post 8

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Deanna,

What we are hitting on here is something like sex. Everyone likes sex, but that doesn't mean that they like sex with just anybody. If I found Paris Hilton in my bed, I would throw her out.

We like our work, but we may not like the other things we have to deal with. This is how it is for many people today.

How many people out there wish that they could have been Lester Burnham from American Beauty? How many people would have loved to have blackmailed at least one past employer for a year's salary? There are millions.

I don't know what to make of the bad management in IT. I have experienced different types of bad managment. Here are some:

1. the kid (22-23 yrs old)--I have went through this twice, male and female. Both were impatient and were quite naive about how the world worked. Like many kids, they were overly defensive about their abilities.

2. the manager possibly with ADD--This is the guy who asks you to do one job, then asks you to another job five minutes later. Five minutes later, he then wonders why the first job isn't finished.

3. the know-it-all--This is the manager who is never wrong about anything. He sincerely thinks that his farts don't stink. He is definitely most likely to be the small-business owner. He went into business for himself because he is a know-it-all and can't be told anything. If his wife is also involved with the company, it's definitely bad news.
Back in 1996-7, I experienced a manager like this who was also an Objectivist. Some people on this board have probably heard of him. He died last December. His name was RW Bradford.

4. the unsupportive manager--This is the one who gives you a job, but doesn't give you any direction on how to do it. If you ask for help, he will say: "Just get it done." He will do this even if he asks you to run a three-minute mile. He is impatient and doesn't understand that everything has to be learned.

5. the invisible manager--This manager is actually quite tolerable. He does little damage because you never see him. However, he also isn't there to recognize any of your accomplishments.

6. the show-off--This one comments on clothing constantly. He also will have a fit if your desk looks like someone actually works there. His desk is neat probably because he doesn't have anything better to do.

7. the bored manager--He's a lot like #6. He just doesn't have enough to do. Therefore, he is always calling meetings and taking up more of your time. It's to make up for his boredom. He probably works less hours than you do. You get more work done when he's not around, which is rare.

8. the reactive manager--This is the one who never plans anything. He will call you up and give you a task: "I need you to write a report for a meeting I have in an hour." A logical reponse is: "I wish I had known about this a couple days ago." You drop everything you are doing and write the report to make up for his lack of planning. Speaking metaphorically, he locks the barn after the horse has already escaped.

9. the paranoid--He makes unfounded accusations without any evidence, sometimes in spite of it.

10. the outside-work manager--He will try to recruit you into things outside of the job. I actually had a manager who tried to get me into an Amway franchise. One big regret was that I didn't go over his head on this.

The best managers I've had generally fit a profile. They have been married women in the 45-55 range. I have a few theories on this, too. For starters, you can bullshit these women. They have heard it all, and it doesn't work. As a result, they know who actually works and who actually loafs and schmoozes. They reward the workers for being workers. They are also quite helpful and will answer questions when you have them. They can be tough, but are fair most of the time.


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Friday, September 8, 2006 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The only 'vacations' I have taken over the last couple of decades have been either LP conventions or visits to family and friends back up in the Northeast. The trips recharge me, even when I am 'working' during them. The real key for me, as it has been for a lot of folks I know, is moving into some area of "work" that we would probably do for free anyway, if we had our financial considerations already handled otherwise. Even in the high-stress environments that some folks seem to prefer, the validity of the task, as something that gives you a reason to get out of bed in the morning for more than the paycheck, makes it vocation rather than J-O-B.

Other than a chance to recharge the batteries now and then, vacation really doesn't have a major purpose for folks like us. We also wonder at the folks who work at things they hate, mostly for the 'benefits' package ... so they can "retire" and "not have to do that anymore"! Of course most of those will be dead within about 5 years, as their life ceases to have any purpose other than mere existence.

Meanwhile, European cultures promote lengthy "holiday" sessions, and stress working hard so you can enjoy the time off ... retirement is treated entirely differently over there.

Post 10

Monday, September 11, 2006 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
That's a good point, Steve.

I may have considered more such trips myself. My last two week-long seminars were FEE in August 1997 and LVMI in June 2003. I did attend some other retreats in 2000 and 2001.

People here are working hard, too. Just look at all the hours they put in.


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.