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Post 80

Monday, October 23, 2006 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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>But it is not assumed that men like Aristotle or other good Greek philosophers and non-Catholics will be condemned.

What does Church say about those who have learnt about God's grace and still refuse to believe in Him?



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Post 81

Monday, October 23, 2006 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Jon (comment #79),

I think Rand was speaking informally in an interview, off the top of her head -- as in her earlier Q & A that sparked this thread. She was not writing definitively on the topic. Whenever Rand wrote, she was very careful. She tried to be in conversation, but face it: few people speak as precisely.

What I get from Rand's "Day for Night" interview and the Q&A, though, is an effort to emphasize context. Here is the interview exchange with James Day on the religion point:
DAY: You've written that the concept of God is morally evil.

RAND: I didn't say it's morally evil -- not in those words. I said it is false.

DAY: False.

RAND: I said it's a fantasy. It doesn't exist. I would say that religion can be very dangerous psycho-epistemologically, in regard to the working of a man's mind. Faith is dangerous, because a man who permits himself to exempt some aspect of reality from reason, and to believe in a god even though he knows he has no reason to believe in a god -- there is no evidence in a god's existence -- that is the danger, psychologically. That man is not going to be rational, or will have a terrible conflict. It's wrong in that way.

Note the words in boldface, my emphasis. Again, emphasizing that she was speaking conversationally, and not definitively, in those sentences she didn't use words like "necessarily" or "unavoidably," or anything that amounted to: "If you are religious, your mind and character will disintegrate." No, she spoke only of the psychological "danger" of religion and faith. Even the final two sentences, which appear to be more definite, should be understood within the context of the preceding qualifiers. A reasonable interpretation is that Rand appears to be saying: "If you operate on faith, you are skating on thin ice, psychologically speaking." I wouldn't disagree at all with that.

(Note also that Rand didn't hold the mere belief in a supernatural being as "morally evil." To the contrary: she said that it was simply "false." I could make much of this answer in regard to the "Fact and Value" debate; but let's save that for another time and place.)

Incidentally, Jon, I'm happy that you didn't mean what I construed from your earlier remarks.


Post 82

Monday, October 23, 2006 - 8:30pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Bidinotto,

"I asked this because unqualified words from several posters maintained precisely that faith and religious ideas necessarily and always had dire, utterly destructive effects on the individual. That being so, the clear conclusion for any reader to draw was that, according to Objectivism, no such practitioner could possibly have a happy, fulfilled life."

The key word is "individual".

I've been puzzled by your purpose in pushing this point as hard as you have been. I suppose someone should have asked what you mean by "happy fulfilled life". Of course, in most things, it's a matter of degree. You might have asked "devoid of reason, can no animal can live a happy fulfilled life?" And then we can all remember all of the dogs we have known wagging their tails with grins on their faces. They're obviously happy, doesn't mean I want to be one.

I think Ayn Rand meant more than "danger".

Belief in superstition, "faith", IS destructive. At least of the kind of person I want to be. That doesn't mean that I haven't known many people who claim to be religious, at least to believe in God, and are very good at what they do, good problem solvers, very nice people and seem very happy. And I DO respect them. I just wouldn't BE them.

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Post 83

Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 2:56amSanction this postReply
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Okay, class.  Here are a few more exercises you can use to demonstrate your skills in clarifying how Ayn Rand did not think religion was all that bad.

 

From Journals of Ayn Rand:

 

Religion:…The great poison of mankind…

p. 24--The Hollywood Years

 

I want to fight religion as the root of all human lying and the excuse for suffering.  I believe…that the worst curse on mankind is the ability to consider ideals as something quite abstract and detached from one’s everyday life…I hold religion mainly responsible for this.  I want to prove that religion breaks a character before it is formed, in childhood,…by making him a hypocrite before he knows any other possible attitude towards life…Religion is also the first enemy of the ability to think…Faith is the worst curse of mankind: it is the exact antithesis and enemy of thought…I want to be known as the greatest champion of reason and the greatest enemy of religion.

pp. 66-68--Journal entries dated 4-9-34

 

All consciousness is reason..  All reason is logic.  Everything that comes between consciousness and logic is a disease.  Religion—the greatest disease of mankind.

p. 79--Journal entries dated 5-15-34

 

The Christian morality includes the most vicious evil as the most essential part of the happiness it advocates: self-sacrifice…

pp. 599-600--Journal entries dated 5-19-49

 

One possible approach here might be to say that most of these entries were written in her early years, while she was struggling to free herself from the intellectual sway of atheistic communism.  But feel free to improvise other creative solutions.

 

Dennis

 

 


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Post 84

Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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Robert said:
I think Rand was speaking informally in an interview, off the top of her head -- as in her earlier Q & A that sparked this thread. She was not writing definitively on the topic. Whenever Rand wrote, she was very careful. She tried to be in conversation, but face it: few people speak as precisely.  [Emphasis added.]
This is the key point.  I was trying to remember how long Rand took to write Atlas.  There were 14 years between The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.  Maybe she had trouble coming up with a plot.  : )

Given a statement, made during a Q&A, that is ambiguous, the appropriate thing to do to determine its meaning is to look at the body of work that lies behind it.  Rather than find an interpretation that contradicts what Rand had written, find one that is consistent with it.

Thanks,
Glenn


Post 85

Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:03amSanction this postReply
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Memorable quote from the November Gourmet article about Vilnus, Lithuania, wherein the author describes how the Soviet occupiers put churches to other uses:

St. Casimir's was the Museum of Atheism.  "Did you go?" we asked Virginija, and she said "There was nothing interesting there."


Peter


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Post 86

Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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I want to add a short comment to this thread, which nobody has made so far but I consider necessary: it is absolutely wonderful to read of so many people doing their more than very best and even tearing their clothes, as the saying goes, to rescue and whitewash Ayn Rand’s hem from even one small lonely spot of soil. Ayn Rand made a faux pas while speaking, a faux pas she surely regretted and hoped nobody would ever remember, a faux pas she would never have committed in writing for, I think it was Robert who said it, she was very careful when putting an idea down on paper.

 

The defense of Ayn Rand on this thread is, as said, wonderful. It reminds one of a host of brave fighters coming to the defense of the lady in distress.

 

But let’s remember the last scene of Billy Wilder’s unforgettable “Some like it hot”: “Well, nobody’s perfect!”

 

Neither was Ayn Rand. To me she is and will always be mankind’s greatest genius, past, present and future, but she was also a human being, and with a brain constantly working at her level (the imaginable highest possible) and under full pressure, a slip-of-the-tongue may be excused.

 

After all, Beethoven was a very rich man and yet he lived as a pauper, in utter poverty, so much that Rossini (the Rossini!), who admired him immensely, cried while descending the stairs from the attic where Beethoven lived and where he had visited him. And yet, Beethoven was and remains being a genius (I’m a fan of Van, should you not have noticed it yet.)

 

Rand also made some mistakes, the way I see it, like choosing a cigarette as a symbol for Objectivism (just because she liked to smoke) or declaring herself as an enemy to a female becoming president of a nation.

 

But all this doesn’t demean her in the slightest, and that’s the reason why I enjoy so much seeing all these Objectivists behaving as if they were the 7th Regiment coming to the rescue.

 

I salute you!



Post 87

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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Rand also made some mistakes, the way I see it, like choosing a cigarette as a symbol for Objectivism.
Speaking of mistakes, where did Rand ever say that a cigarette is a symbol for Objectivism? You may be thinking of the dollar sign which, if I remember correctly, she had inscribed on her cigarettes.

But even the dollar sign was not considered by her to be a symbol for Objectivism. She stated in her interview with Playboy Magazine (March 1964) that "the meaning of the dollar sign is made clear in Atlas Shrugged. It is the symbol, clearly explained in the story, of free trade and, therefore, of a free mind. A free mind and a free economy are corollaries. One can't exist without the other. The dollar sign, as the symbol of the currency of a free country, is the symbol of the free mind. More than that, as to the historical origin of the dollar sign, although it has never been proved, one very likely hypothesis is that it stands for the initials of the United States. So much for the dollar sign."

- Bill

Post 88

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:11amSanction this postReply
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Hong,

The positive position of the Catholic Church (its assertion, self-admittedly faith-based) is that those who do have faith in Christ as their redeemer and who seek the forgiveness of sins through an ordained priest, (that is, a minister who has inherited his authority transmitted through the apostles and their ordained successors,) will gain salvation (be admitted into the full presence of God in the afterlife) through the gift of faith. The Catholic Church neither denies that God may choose to grant the same salvation to non-believers who live good lives and who die in a state of perfect contrition (again, regret and amends, as possible, for their sins against others) not from fear of punishment, but from hatred for their own evil ways. Thus, while the Catholic Church says that believers will be saved, it does not hold that non-believers must be damned.

I would assume that non-believers who worship false gods, who commit blasphemy, and who engage in acts that we could consider "victimless crimes" would indeed be damned, since the Catholic Church would hold these not to be victimless crimes, but to be the wilful exclusion of the sinner from the presence of God. But mere disbelief, in itself, is neither blasphemy nor idol-worship.

This is my understanding as an atheist, raised Catholic, who has studied comparative religion and who is familiar with current Church doctrine, which interests me in the same way as does the history of Marxism or the beliefs of primitive tribesmen. That is, I am not a spokesman for the Church, nor do I follow its teachings, or even find them coherent (i.e., explicable in any self-consistent and meaningful manner).

My concern here and above has been to distinguish between:
Religion per se, versus faith, mysticism, and supernaturalism.
Christianity in some of its various Protestant, fundamentalist, evangelical, versus Catholic teaching.
Christianity as an historical phenomenon - witch-hunts, inquisitions, anti-Semitism, etc., & the actual beliefs and practices of certain people today who consider themselves religious.

I don't like seeing people who vary so much as Jim Jones and David Koresh on one hand, and benevolent, tolerant and (for this culture) extremely rational people, like my family, on the other hand being tarred with the same brush.

I fear that is the worst of Christians, those who tend to be obsessed and aggressive evangelical "Bible-thumpers" who see all others as "unsaved" and in need of their "special assistance," who are the ones who non-Christians are most likely to meet, and from whom to form judgments. I am not at all interested in defending Catholicism as such, or in convincing anyone of its superiority, innocence, etc. I believe Bob Bidinotto's post above makes the two important points that everyone here should consider. To put it in my words, first, mere Christianity itself is not like some "devil's mark" (a spot, like a mole, which inquisitors used to search for on witches as proof of their contact with Satan) that allows one to simply say, "They're evil and irrational, and that's all we need to know." And second, we cannot expect to win either allies or converts among the rational but religious who see our own fundamentalism and Randiolatry as even more lunatic and cultish than their own beliefs.

Ted Keer, 25 October, 2006, NYC

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/25, 1:15pm)


Post 89

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Rand & Reagan

It is notorious among Objectivists that Rand vehemently opposed Reagan's election as president and saw him as a religious zealot whose entire potentiality as a president could be gauged based on one simple matter, his opposition to Roe vs. Wade. Rand died in 1982. Given Reagan's great economic success, and, most especially, his absolute refusal to make nice with Communism, even up to his (at the time) "disastrous" (to quote the liberal media) decision to walk out of the Reykjavik negotiations with Gorbachev over the Russian's refusal their to accept the U.S.'s development of SDI ("Star Wars") which, according to Gorbachev and Soviet archival documentation was the straw the finally broke the back of the Soviets, does anyone here doubt, that even given his faults, that Rand might have re-evaluated her position on Reagan, just as she had on Nixon, and F.D.R.? Or was her judgement, based on her opinion of his religiosity, impeccable and unflawed?

Ted Keer, 25 October, 2006, NYC

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/25, 1:16pm)


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Post 90

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:43amSanction this postReply
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You all might be interested in the article:

Three Books: An Atheist's Defense of Christianity

I suspect most of you will find much to disagree with, but might still find some of the less well-known Rand quotes interesting.

Regi


Post 91

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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To William Dwyer: I wonder if you really read "Atlas Shrugged" for it is filled with references to people smoking cigarettes bearing the Sign of the Dollar. It is the trademark, so to speak, of those living in Galt’s Gulch, all of them representing the ideas that John Galt later presents to the world in his famous speech, the fully detailed philosophy of what Ayn Rand was to call Objectivism. If this should no be a sufficient proof for the cigarette with the Dollar Sign to represent Objectivism, I can offer a selection of references from the book itself:

 

“When a man thinks, there is a spot of fire alive in his mind—and it is proper that he should have the burning point of a cigarette as his one expression.” (Part I - Chapter III)

 

“…she was enjoying the taste of the cigarette he had given her: it was different from any she had ever smoked before. She held the small remnant to the light of the dashboard, looking for the name of the brand. There was no name, only a trademark. Stamped in gold on the thin, white paper there stood the sign of the dollar.” (Part I – Chapter X)

 

“The only remnant of her personal quest was the stub of the cigarette with the dollar sign.”

(Part II – Chapter I)

 

“That cigarette was machine-made, but it was not made in any factory I know—and I know them all. Miss Taggart, to the best of my knowledge, that cigarette was not made anywhere on earth." (Part II – Chapter II)

 

“The ashtray contained a cigarette butt stamped with the sign of the dollar.” (Part II – Chapter III)

 

“She smiled, as she took a cigarette: it bore the sign of the dollar.” (Part III – Chapter I)

 

So it's not just that Rand herself used a cigarette holder bearing the sign of the dollar (a gift received from friends), but very clear to me that Ayn Rand selected her personal liking for cigarettes, added the Sign of the Dollar and, thus, cigarettes issued in this way became a symbol for Objectivism (perhaps people doesn’t like it, in view of nowadays fashion to persecute smokers), but this is what came out of it. She repeated the “Cigarette with the Dollar Sign” scene too often in “Atlas” to not clearly transfer to the reader the idea that such a cigarette is a symbol of her ideas of Objectivism. In fact, the cigarette is the only vehicle she used to identify those adhering to Galt’s ideas, i. e. Objectivism.

 






Post 92

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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in fact, the cigarette is the only vehicle she used to identify those adhering to Galt’s ideas, i. e. Objectivism.
Manfred,

She also used gold as the standard of exchange in Galt's Gulch and as another way of setting them apart. I also believe you are confusing the use of the dollar sign which was on the cigarettes with the cigarettes themselves.

L W


Post 93

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 6:25pmSanction this postReply
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I very strongly recommend that members follow the link in post #90 and read Reginald's essay, "An Atheist's Defense of Christianity." His quotes from Rand's Journals are particularly enlightening.

Ted Keer

Post 94

Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 3:13amSanction this postReply
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To Mr. L W Hall

 

I am not confusing the Sign of the Dollar stamped on the cigarettes from the cigarettes themselves. Matter of fact, Ayn Rand herself selected the cigarette on purpose as a direct symbol of Objectivism. In my reply to William Dwyer above, I mention, directly from “Atlas Shrugged”: “When a man thinks, there is a spot of fire alive in his mind—and it is proper that he should have the burning point of a cigarette as his one expression.” (Part I - Chapter III). This means that Rand made a point of combining the cigarette with thinking and the Sign of the Dollar on it with the philosophy of Objectivism, like this: Cigarette > Sign of the Dollar > Objectivism.

 

In Barbara Branden’s “The Passion of Ayn Rand” you may read ( Chapter 25 – Page 295) an anecdote related with Collins and Cerf, from the Random House publishing company, who had had made packages of cigarettes with a gold dollar sign printed on each cigarette, which they distributed during a banquet organized at the Plaza Hotel in Rand’s honor. “Ayn smoked several of the cigarettes – she had always been a heavy smoker – and saved the rest.” This is evidently significant. Later on (Chapter 31 - Page 383), when she was already very ill from smoking, she made a point to refuse to take a stand against cigarettes and smoking.

 

Moreover, apart from the Sign itself standing in Galt’s Gulch and Galt’s drawing the sign in the air at the end of the book, Rand used only the cigarette as the sole physical identification among Galt’s people. Though she herself wore a lapel pin with the sign of the dollar in real life (a gift from friends – the photograph can be seen on the dust cover of “The Virtue of Selfishness”) neither Galt nor any of his followers used the sign as a lapel pin nor printed on neckties or embroidered on handkerchiefs, shirts, etc. Further on, the book contains not one mention of the Strikers wearing a ring with the Sign of the Dollar, in a way similar to many Freemasons who use rings with the symbol of Freemasonry to identify themselves.

 

I consider that there’s no further need to carry on a debate on what was evidently Rand’s intention: to use the cigarette as a further symbol of Objectivism. But her decision to so do was a mistake, though, as I also mentioned in my writing to Dwyer, it doesn't demean her standing as the most colossal genius ever existing in any way whatsoever.



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