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Post 40

Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
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Did AR in fact contradict herself on the danger of private religious belief? I think the evidence clearly shows the answer is yes.

Here again is the quotation from 1961 that Dennis referenced from AR Answers:

AR: “Religion rests on faith—on an acceptance of certain beliefs apart from reason, That is why it must be private. When it’s a private matter, it’s fine—it can even be a kind of inspiration to people…”

Now, here's what what AR said in her interview with James Day in 1974:

AR: "I would say that religion can be very dangerous psycho-epistemologically, in regard to the working of a man's mind. Faith is dangerous, because a man who permits himself to exempt some aspect of reality from reason, and to believe in a god even though he knows he has no reason to believe in a god -- there is no evidence in a god's existence -- that is the danger, psychologically. That man is not going to be rational, or will have a terrible conflict. It's wrong in that way."

In one statement, religious belief is "fine" if kept private. In the other, belief in a god (or gods)--the base of all religious belief--is NOT fine; such a belief is psychologically destructive.

Given the fact that AR had already addressed how diverging from reason harms man's mind in AS in 1957, the explanation that Dennis offered of AR being more concerned with PR than truth--at least in that one instance--seems to be the only logical one. Viewed contextually, however, I don't think this inconsistency is devastating.

Post 41

Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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I'm sorry, Jonathan, the "fixated subjectivism" formulation was Jason Pappas' formulation.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I'd also have a question for Hong.

I agree that the Inquistion, and any other time that a Christian Church has held secular power has been disastrous. But I am curious what you would find cruel, aggressive, or malevolent in the tenets (teachings) of Christianity. Moses had the Hebrews wipe out the entire Amalekite tribe (nation, ethnos) from the face of the earth, and the prophet of isl*m was both himself a murderer, and advocated murder. But Jesus himself taught nothing of the sort. I'm not expecting you to waste time studying Jesus's own words, if you haven't. But I find his own teachings as commonly accepted to be quite a bit more benevolent than those of the Jewish Torah, and in no way comparable to the religion of the throat slitters. I assume your disgust with Christianity is based on the acts Jesus' followers and of nominally Christian states. I was surprised that one could compare Christian tenets with m*slim tenets.

Ted Keer

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Post 42

Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 9:05pmSanction this postReply
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I personally find the characteristically Christian quest for peoples' "souls" to be quite malevolent. I've never detected its' like among Jews or any of the Eastern religions. I was forced to read the Bible between the ages of nine and fifteen. I remember liking the Old Testament. I disliked the moralizing and preaching of the New Testament. I didn't learn until I was in my thirties that the Old Testament is equivalent to the Torah. That pleased me because I greatly admired the Jews that I knew.

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Post 43

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:38amSanction this postReply
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While declaring war on religious belief would very likely be self-defeating and futile, the fact remains that we have to find ways to defeat it.  We cannot make the mistake that Rand made of assuming that it will fade away as people become more enlightened.  While many religious people may indeed keep their mysticism under wraps and behave otherwise like rational human beings, the premises underlying their world-view are in fact deadly.  To understand why, consider the case of radio talk show host Dennis Prager, whom I listen to frequently.

 

He is fond of saying that the real war in the world today is between secularism and religion, and that what is needed is a return to Judeo-Christian tradition and values.  He is a strong defender of George Bush and his neocon agenda of compassionate conservatism, with all of its huge outlays of lavish government spending and its “benevolent” nation-building efforts to establish democracies in Muslim hell-holes.  It is of no apparent concern to him that thousands of American lives have been sacrificed so that primitive savages can have the freedom to blow each other up on a daily basis.  Altruism and self-sacrifice are totally consistent with his absolute devotion to the Torah, which he teaches at a local seminary.  (He is a nonorthodox Jew.) 

 

Yet, he often pays lip-service to logic and reason, and will contend that his world-view is perfectly rational.  He will acknowledge that his belief in God entails a ‘leap of faith,’ but argues that the atheist must make a similar leap to deny God.  He believes in “Intelligent Design,” and argues that it is illogical to suggest that the universe we see around us could have come about by what he calls “chance.” 

 

He debates foolish but well-known nonbelievers like Sam Harris (whose book, The End of Faith, openly embraces the mystical, anti-self doctrines of Eastern religion).  And he rejoices in the conversion of atheist philosophers like Antony Flew, whose seduction by the proselytizers of “Intelligent Design” prompted lengthy discussions on his show.  He cites this as proof that “intellectually honest” atheists must admit that their viewpoint is ultimately no more defensible than his.

 

He will not debate an Objectivist.  The last time I spoke with his call screener, she informed me that he considers Ayn Rand’s ideas to be too radical for presentation on his show.  I met him by accident at the Denver airport a few years ago, and informed him that I was an atheist but that I enjoyed listening to his show.  He mentioned the encounter on his show the following day, and subsequently responded to an e-mail I sent him.  I have sent numerous e-mails since, explaining the modernist philosophical premises underlying his defense of theism and his ignorance of the classical Aristotelian laws of identity and causality.  He has never responded, and he continues to pepper his monologues with comments about how the secularist sees everything as inherently chaotic.  ‘How is it possible that all of this came about by chance?’ he still wants to know, despite my multiple explanations of the Objectivist view.

 

His weekly “Ultimate Issues Hour” was recently devoted to analyzing and answering the atheist’s confounding question “Who created God?”  He argued that the question itself was somehow invalid.  The fact is, he had to say that because he doesn't have an answer. 

 

His mind is clearly closed to the idea that someone could demonstrate the falsity of his belief in God.  His abject devotion to religion shuts that out completely.  He admits that he would find it very difficult to face life if he did not believe there was a God up there doling out justice to child killers and mass murderers in the hereafter. If he was an atheist, he says, he would suffer from chronic depression. 

 

He has a number of favorite quotations and trite phrases that he cites frequently.

 

(1)   “If people stop believing in God, they do not believe in something, they believe in anything.”

(2)   “Without God, there is no wisdom.”

(3)   “Without God, life has no meaning.” (An argument he has borrowed, unknowingly, from Immanuel Kant.)

 

He will not allow his belief in God to be subjected to doubt—nor will he allow his endorsement of the Ten Commandments to be seriously challenged.  He has a stock response to any caller who suggests that we could have a well-defined code of ethics without God.  It would just amount to whatever each individual felt, he will say.  Ethics without God would be purely subjective. I have also informed him in e-mails that Ayn Rand showed how a truly objective code of ethics could be derived from human nature and the requirements of human life.  Again, no response.

 

Prager devotes an hour of his show to the subject of happiness every week.  Is he, therefore, an advocate of enlightened self-interest?  No, he says we have an obligation or a duty to be happy—in order to make the world a better place.

 

He detests the self-esteem movement.  He often says that one of his greatest insights was his discovery that his toughest battle in life was his battle against his own deepest self. (See my prior reference to Edwin Locke's profound insight about how religion promotes repression.) His views on sexuality are relatively enlightened, although he expresses opposition to sex outside of marriage.  And he attributes sexual desire to the "baser aspects of human nature."

 

He praises religious fundamentalism and Christian evangelicals as the saviors of America’s future.  Most of his callers are as pious as he is.  That is typically his first question of them, if he elects to probe the reasons for their point-of-view.

 

The bottom line is this: Prager likes to cloak himself in the robe of reason, but his soul is that of a Bible-thumper.  Like many religious people, he claims to be ready to face any challenge, but will not open any door that might potentially threaten his God-fearing view of life and the universe.  He knows how to protect his theological perspective—and, along with it, his fundamental values of altruism and self-sacrifice.

 

Prager demonstrates how and why it will not work for Objectivists to simply try to co-exist with believers who pay lip service to reason.  His veneer of self-proclaimed rationality notwithstanding, he is an altruist to the core, as are those who share his basic outlook.  Because they are altruists, they will ultimately oppose any comprehensive effort to pare back the welfare state. Note how they defend Bush by pointing to all the federal money he has given to sundry humanitarian causes and programs.  In some cases, they boast that he has spent more on such programs than Clinton. 

 

And like George Bush, they often talk tough but are utterly lacking in the courage and self-confidence to seek out and destroy the fanatical, bloodthirsty savages in foreign lands who would kill us.  As they see it, the sacrifice of innocent American lives is a small price to pay to demonstrate our moral purity to thugs in every rat hole across the globe.  Despite superficial appearances, the avowed ethical principles of these “modernized” believers betray their alliance with fundamentally anti-American values that will ultimately ring down the curtain on America.  They are not our allies.

 
Dennis


Post 44

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:48amSanction this postReply
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LW

 

I understand that you want to give Rand the benefit of the doubt here, but if we truly take her at her word, then we have to say that she was willing to embrace a contradiction.  To say that she meant that faith was “not that dangerous” is a far cry from saying that it’s “fine.”  I prefer to conclude that she had moments when she was, shall we say, diplomatic.

 

You say that you “believe it is dangerous waters for people to start reinterpreting her words to fit the mold they believe is proper.” But isn’t that exactly what you’re doing here?

 

I just don’t see a problem with reinterpretation as long as we identify it as such.  That's why God invented quotation marks.

 

 

Hong

 

there is no point at this time to declare a war on religion because it would mean declaring wars on 95% of people in the world

 

And we would clearly lose that war.  But that doesn’t mean we can’t look for alternative ways to fight it.  In fact, we have to.  I have some thoughts on that in my previous post.

 

Robert

 

in essence, it seemed to her, educating and accentuating the 'common sense' of the human would end up having most [religious people] accept the integrated philosophy for living on earth - the essential of which is Galt's speech..

 

I think you’re right.  But I think Rand was wrong.  For more details, see my last post. ..

 

Jon

 

I remember seeing Rand's television interview with James Day in 1974, but I had forgotten that she said that.  Is there a transcript somewhere?

 

In one statement, religious belief is "fine" if kept private. In the other, belief in a god (or gods)--the base of all religious belief--is NOT fine; such a belief is psychologically destructive.

 

That’s it.  Very clearly stated.  And I agree that it isn’t any great crime on her part.  But it does show a side of Rand that I’m not sure I had ever seen before.

 

Mike

 

remember liking the Old Testament. I disliked the moralizing and preaching of the New Testament. I didn't learn until I was in my thirties that the Old Testament is equivalent to the Torah. That pleased me because I greatly admired the Jews that I knew.

 

Both testaments were always equally detestable, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Dennis


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Post 45

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:57amSanction this postReply
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Ted

 

Rand was originally going to include a character "Father Amadeus" in Atlas Shrugged who would presumably have been the one who made the "Sign of the Dollar" at the novel's close.

 

I find that truly bizarre.  I’m curious about your source for that.

 

Those who engage in religious activity from (perhaps mis-reasoned) belief can be approached with friendly reasoned arguments, such as, "Do you believe that God would condemn an otherwise good man who simply could not truly profess that he had faith in God?"

 

Interesting.  I would go further.  I think that any halfway reasonable God should want everyone to be an atheist.  After all, if He gave us logic and reason, wouldn’t He have every reason to be angry if we didn’t insist on evidence before falling to our knees?

 

I attended every Sunday until I left home at 18, even though my parents knew of my atheism at 16. I always paid strict attention, and used the Mass as an opportunity for "philosophical detection." I have only returned since for a few Christmas Masses, and for funeral and weddings. In those contexts, I cannot say that I regret having been raised within the Church.

 

Wow.  I had the opposite view of religion.  I don’t think I ever saw it as anything but dreadful.  Listening to sermons always made me feel like an idiot.  A self-loathing idiot.

 

I guess I wasn’t alone in that view.  We had a saying about Episcopalians.  “Wherever you find four Episcopalians, you always find a fifth.”  (of Jack Daniels, that is.)

 

But I am curious what you would find cruel, aggressive, or malevolent in the tenets (teachings) of Christianity.

 

Here is a little taste of Jesus’ benevolence:

 

 “If anyone will not receive you or listen to your words,” Jesus told his disciples, “shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town.  Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.” (Matthew 10, 14-15)

 

One other thing: Regarding the spiritual aspects of the Objectivist philosophy, I have long believed that we should approach young people by inspiring them to refocus their idealism on making the most of their own individual lives.  We should show them how Objectivism and its reverence for human life can endow their quest for happiness with a profound moral purpose.  I call it “egoistic idealism.”  

 

That spiritual vision is best captured in the following quote from Ayn Rand’s introduction to The Night of January 16th:

 

 “Your life, your achievement, your happiness, your person are of paramount importance.  Live up to your highest vision of yourself no matter what the circumstances you might encounter.  An exalted view of self-esteem is a man’s most admirable quality.”

 

Dennis

 


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Post 46

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 5:05amSanction this postReply
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One should remember that Jesus was a Jew, and preached to Jews..... what, with him, was as 'christian', was a sect of Judaism.....  it was Paul who created the separate religion, deifying Jesus, incorporating many pagan notions [the Trinity, for instance] and fostered many of the church attitudes, and from whose followers created the New Testament...

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Post 47

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Dennis said:

 You say that you “believe it is dangerous waters for people to start reinterpreting her words to fit the mold they believe is proper.” But isn’t that exactly what you’re doing here?



 
I don't believe I am Dennis, and it is surely not my intention. What I said was to examine the evidence in a different light than in one which she simply contradicts herself. There are many on here(including yourself I'm sure) who have read more of Rand's writings than I have, but I have always been under the impression that Rand was not much on PC, and said what she believed. If she was just being polite so to speak in this instance I would think she could have just left it unsaid, because to have said this for PR reasons strikes me as very un Rand-like.

Rand being human I am sure she could have a slip-of-the-tongue, or a time when she wished she had said something differently, however if this is the case here it seems she would have corrected it somewhere down the line given her seeming penchant for exactness, and how seriously contradictory this would appear to her other writings on the subject. So I maintain that it is just possible we are misunderstanding what she meant in this instance.

L W




Post 48

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 8:42amSanction this postReply
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Hong 

there is no point at this time to declare a war on religion because it would mean declaring wars on 95% of people in the world

 And we would clearly lose that war.  But that doesn’t mean we can’t look for alternative ways to fight it.  In fact, we have to.  I have some thoughts on that in my previous post.

 

Yes. I agree. Christianity helped to hold most Western world in the Dark Age for a thousand years and I consider the fight against it started since the Renaissance. In particular the Enlightenment movements did a lot of damage to it. The fight continues to this day. So in a sense I think the Western world is still on the recovering from the Dark Age.






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Post 49

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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Ted,
To answer your question. I knew about those benevolent teachings by Jesus and I don't think the Ten Commandments are bad either (except the believing in God part). I did go to some Churches and participated in a Bible study group as soon as I came to US from China. What I learnt there shocked me. And I summarize it below and you can tell if it is accurate.

Unlike what I thought originally and unlike what's taught in Buddhism, all those virtues and charitable things that Jesus preached are only secondary and will not guarantee you a place in Heaven. That all human is born with the Original Sin (because of Adam and Eve), which is unredeemable no matter what you do in life, you are doomed to go to hell because of it. Jesus let himself to be beaten to a pulp (as depicted in the "The Passion of Christ") and to be nailed on a cross and only by such an act (not the good deeds one is supposed to do) that all our collective Sin can be excused by God (because he is Just) so that we can go to Heaven after we die.

As soon as I learnt the above, I stopped going to the Bible study group. For Western people, you are probably too much used to the sight of the cross and forget  that it is a device of one of the most cruel ways of torture and execution. What a twisted sense of love and passion!

Now that I learnt a bit more about Western history, I was also completely baffled by all those wars and atrocities committed in the name of religion and God. Like England in the time of Henry VIII to Elizabeth I, there were all those struggles between Catholics and Protestants and people were burnt on the stakes simply because one was a Catholic or Protestant, one way or the other. It's just absurd.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 10/20, 11:46am)


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Post 50

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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It’s interesting, Dennis, to hear your experience with Prager. I wondered if anyone actually attaches any meaning to the phrase Judeo-Christian. I’ve tried to infer its meaning from the context of its usage and can only come up with “Western” but obviously that won’t do. It’s actually difficult to find anyone who will explain what this phrase means. Prager is one of the few. He claims to define its meaning here but be the judge. Besides altruistic wars of liberation he list heterosexual marriage as core to Judeo-Christianity. That’s it?

 

Robert Novak is more ambitious but clearly over ambitious. He faults Aristotle for accepting slavery which, of course, Christians did until the last decades of the 18th century. He completely ignores Cicero and the Stoics on natural law and universality (but not Kant.) And he claims the Christian universality of redemption (which depends on the metaphysical fact of free will) implies the universality of individual liberty (which is conditional and not consistently advocated until the Enlightenment let alone fully established.)

 

In fact one can practice the ultimate Christian virtue (belief) while incarcerated in Alcatraz. Liberty is not required for redemption; Jesus was not fighting for the liberation of his fellow Jews from Roman oppression. Just the opposite: he took pains to avoid sedition. He found slavery and oppression no hindrance to being a Christian. See Mathew 26 and Romans 13.

 

Do Mr. Prager and Mr. Novak like many cultural conservatives see a great threat to our Judeo-Christians culture from influx of pagans from Mexico? Oh, wait, they’re not pagans …


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Post 51

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

Re your post #40. The two statements by Rand are not contradictory. In the earlier she noted that if it was private it was fine, because it doesn't enter the public realm and harm others. In the secnond she was refering to it being harmful to the individual who beleives it.

Ethan

edited for spelling

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 10/20, 5:06pm)


Post 52

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan, I applaud you for attempting to reconcile Rand's statements. Unfortunately, I think you're overlooking something. When Rand said that faith is fine insofar as it's private, she didn't mean it simply in the sense that it doesn't enter the political realm and harm others; she was talking about it's being fine for the person himself, for recall that she adds "...it can even be a kind of inspiration."

- Bill

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Post 53

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Bill,

Sure, it can be an inspiration. Some people draw something from it, otherwise why be religious? It's the point of Objectivism that dealing with reality is the best means of success in life. It works becasue reality is what it is. Religion is not a guarantee of destruction and misery, it's a force that has points both psoitive and negative to people. Ultimately it's "bad" because it's irrational, but one can be religious and live a long fulfilled life. That can't be denied. Whenyour faith leads you to actions that are an attack upon others, that's when it becomes a concern for others.

Ethan


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Post 54

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 7:45pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan, I'm sorry but Bill's correct. It's inconsistent to say that faith outside of the public realm is fine because it's inspirational and then to say that faith is inimical to the mind on the other. The fact that faith can inspire people to do good things doesn't mean much if it comes at the price of their rational functioning, does it?

Post 55

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 7:58pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

"Both testaments were always equally detestable, as far as I'm concerned. "

The old testament is at least a good story when you're ten years old. I also liked Christmas songs and even sang in the church choir for a couple of years. I never believed any of it. I'm still not absolutely convinced anyone really does. People say so many things for "effect" and to preserve their egos and for social purposes. Whether they believe what they are saying is the "truth" may be quite beside the point. They're simply showing their "colors". I've never had the slightest desire to give the bible another read after forty plus years.

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Post 56

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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I Love the High Tone of the Conversation Here!

I must say that I am really happy with simply the way that the conversation on this string has been conducted, with not one word, so far as I can see, exchanged in anger, and people with obviously very strong emotional responses to both their own and others' points of view being able to interpret everything being said in the most generous way. I have been almost ashamed at some points to have participated in certain other strings. (And on certain other sites, at this point.) Yet I have sanctioned various longer responses here on this string simply for the way in which they have been presented, even though I myself may have disagreed with the specifics of what has been said. So much has been said, that I will respond with multiple posts.

But again, I think everyone here deserves a big round of applause!

Ted Keer, 20 October, 2006, NYC

Post 57

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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But Jon,

You can't force them to be rational. You can only enforce people right to be free of others. An "Objectiivst World" doesn't require everyone to be Objectivists. Not everyone will be...and that's their loss. Rand knew that and that is reflected in her statements.

Ethan


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Post 58

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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A question:

If what has been said and implied in this thread by some is true -- i.e., that faith and religion are necessarily destructive in all cases -- is anyone asserting this prepared to conclude the following:

that throughout the entire history of mankind, no practitioner of any religion, and no person who has accepted anything on faith, could possibly have led a happy, fulfilled life?

This is an honest question. I'm just wondering how far some are willing to push this point.

And if not, why not?

Post 59

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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Responses to Mike & Dennis

Mike E:
"I personally find the characteristically Christian quest for peoples' "souls" to be quite malevolent."
Well, it's not like scalping, but the Evangelical drive to get converts does always seem much more like getting a notch on one's belt than like a genuine concern for others. Very second-hander. I associate this with certain sects though, not Christianity in general. I find Jewish standoffishness racist. And isl*mic fatalism; "Well, either convert or I'll kill you - it doesn't matter to me!" is downright evil.

"I remember liking the Old Testament. I disliked the moralizing and preaching of the New Testament." Exactly the sentiments of Alexander DeLarge from Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange. (Malcolm McDowell portrays him in Stanley Kubrick's film version, right) I find the Torah either preachy (Leviticus, Deuteronomy) or laughably violent and implausible. But I do love Tolkien's Silmarilion.

Dennis H:
"While declaring war on religious
belief would very likely be self-defeating and futile, the fact remains that we have to find ways to defeat it." [Emphasis added.] I would say that it is not religious, but belief that is just about the most viciously used word in the English language. I don't believe that Iran is a threat that we must stand up to or believe that evolution is true or believe that Herbert's Dune is a great novel. I know it. I believe only that upon which I have no grounds which to cliam certainty or to base moral judgments. Anyone who says he believes in God should be asked: "So, you mean that you don't actually know he exists, you just believe it?"

"...consider the case of radio talk show host Dennis Prager..." Prager is great to listen to in the same way as Limbaugh or Coulter, he's swift on his feet and can usually hone in on the nonsense of others with surgical precision. None of them impresses me when they put forth their positive "beliefs." The fact that he would rather evade you doesn't surprise me. But even so, I can understand why one wants to keep on trying with such folk, like we are moths to their flames....Sam Harris's book disappointed me too. And I am interested to hear about Antony Flew. I heard him speak once, he seemed extremely non-committal, a professional agnostic by temperament. Perhaps he got tired of it, and gave in.

Ted Keer, 21 October, 2006, NYC


(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/20, 10:05pm)

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/21, 12:50pm)


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