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Monday, January 29, 2007 - 7:06amSanction this postReply
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Am glad ye note there is a difference between sentiency and sapiency - and that it is sapiency which gives rise to the self-awareness of happiness, which, as par with being human, involves flourishing since that is a mindfulness......

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Monday, January 29, 2007 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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Right Rev'!

Animals experience sensations, some of them very positive sensations -- but, as Rand said (and Aristotle alluded to), 'very positive sensations' aren't synonymous with happiness. With humans, conscious of whether or not their joy was gained by contradictory means, one must question where the positive sensations come from.

A professional philosopher (I forget who, at the moment) once said that, if given the choice, healthy humans wouldn't choose to indefinitely hook themselves up to a pleasure-machine -- if it meant that they couldn't actually live a real human life (think of The Matrix here). They'd have the very positive sensations alright, but there is something about the richness of experience that would be lost. If only (perhaps) the memory that they had made the choice to cop-out of a living a real human life (by taking the "blue pill"!), perhaps because they felt unfit for reality.

Ed
[someone who'd take the red pill, because he recognizes that truth and integrity matter to his psychological welfare]



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Post 2

Monday, January 29, 2007 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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Ye cannot appreciate happiness unless ye at some point not had it.... tis the contrast - and the consciousness of knowing this - which makes for the appreciation of the value of it....

Post 3

Monday, January 29, 2007 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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I really like that quote from you, Rev'.

For folks who've only ever chased adrenaline rushes, their "concept" of happiness must be concrete-bound. It's only when you can conceptualize "THIS is worth living for!" (because of being exposed to a referent of the concept 'happiness') that you can understand what is meant by the word.

Ed



Post 4

Monday, January 29, 2007 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,
Excellent article! So much there that I want to take my time and think about. It is hard to imagine a topic that could be more important.

I'll just post a few thoughts of lessor importance for right now. Here is the first one:

I agree that humans experience a unique form of happiness that requires choice. But I'm not sure that non-human animals - some of the more intelligent ones - don't have something akin to an ancestor of our happiness. Not the same, but none the less a notch above simple pain and pleasure.

Here is a dog story for you: I was a boy and had an Australian sheep dog named Sox. One day my brothers and I found a black Laborador Retriever that we started to play with, ignoring Sox. She went over to a bush, threw up, and trotted off. Mom got a call from Grandmother saying, "What is the matter with Sox. She just showed up at my house and she looks so sad."

I wonder if there isn't some kind of long-term happiness of a lessor type that is based upon a level of intelligence that but not at a level of choice.

And on levels of intelligence, here is a bird story. I had a small parrot years ago. One day I saw him sitting on his perch in the cage, scratching his head with a claw on his foot. Then he stopped scratching, tilted his head, looking about, searching the bottom of the cage. Then he scrambled down to the bottom of the cage, grabbed a loose feather and climbed back up on the perch. He then took the feather in his foot and used it to scratch that hard to reach spot.

The bird isn't making human 'choices' or operating at our level of self-aware, conceptual integration, but I often think our understanding of the different levels of intelligence is simplistic.

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Monday, January 29, 2007 - 2:47pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Let me check with you and see if I'm understanding these terms correctly.

Sentience = awareness, but not necessarily self-awareness or a claim for the capacity to choice.

Sapient or sapience = knowledgeable or the capacity for judgement, and thus would imply choice, and given Objectivist epistemology, implies self-awareness.

Does that seem right?

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Monday, January 29, 2007 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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Robert makes the point that you have to have experience unhappiness to 'appreciate' happiness.

That's a tricky one. The key here is 'appreciate' - I suspect you can 'experience' happiness without having been significantly unhappy, but there does seem to be a 'contrasting' mechanism in our mind that enhances ones experience of happiness in contrast to previous unhappiness. But if one is unhappy for too long, or accepts it to any degree as normal it can have the opposite effect of tainting one's later happiness. This area is one where psychology and philosophy are both at play.

And an 'appreciation' would seem to arise out of self-awareness of one's role in achieving happiness and in a contemplation of possibilities of happiness versus unhappiness.

I'm fond of sailing - the kind of sailing where you explore new areas and travel fairly long distances. Part of the joy I get is from being away from artificial needs and rules. At sea you face mother nature and social conventions fall away. My connection to reality is much more direct. After fighting stormy conditions on a cold, ugly night, the next day's sunshine has an extraordinary beauty to it and life itself feels more intensely pleasurable. Like love, it turns the volume up.

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Monday, January 29, 2007 - 5:20pmSanction this postReply
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Perhaps I should have used the term 'values' instead of 'appreciates'.....

there is a lot which needs said on this issue, far too much to cover other than in another article, but one need remember the fundamentals of the living organism is - pleasure vs pain - and as the complexity of the biological continuity grow, these in turn become differentiated and themselves complex - which is what sentiency involves [the development and growth of a nervous system with centralized controling and directiveness].... the rise of sapiency, self-awareness and choicing, is of a magnitude greater, which brings, then, valuing into the equation..... even so - as biological beings, there is a curve involved, where at the beginning of the exponential curve, there may be species in which rudiments of awareness may at points among that group arise, as natural selection places this in terms of increase of survivability, according to specific enviromental influences [meaning, what in some enviromental areas may increase its usefulness, in others, make a handicap - because there is always a trade-off involved, and increase in something comes as a decrease in other things, which is why, for instance, we cannot see like some other species can, or smell like other species can]

as an aside, one can, in the case of dogs, for instance, note that breeding brings out or culls specific aspects of the species involved, and side effects involve relation appreciation or lack thereof - see Animals in Translation for more details on this....

(Edited by robert malcom on 1/29, 5:24pm)


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Monday, January 29, 2007 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Thanks for the kind, appreciative words.

I agree that humans experience a unique form of happiness that requires choice. But I'm not sure that non-human animals - some of the more intelligent ones - don't have something akin to an ancestor of our happiness. Not the same, but none the less a notch above simple pain and pleasure.

Here is a dog story for you: ...


I think that when you say "a notch above simple pain and pleasure" -- that you mean a pain or pleasure that is not simply physically-stimulated pain and pleasure. And if that is what you merely mean, then I of course agree. Animals have psychological lives, too. Experiments with dogs in electric cages has shown that you can teach them a "learned helplessness" -- a "nihilist" attitude, if you will. Well, if we can change dogs with experiments like this, then dogs must've started out with a non-nihilist attitude (as all animals do). And if dogs start out without feeling any nihilism, then perhaps they can become depressed when they first encounter the relative loss associated with a desire they can't individually meet (such as your dog Sox, who desired your attention, but couldn't have it).

But this evidence -- this evidence of dogs experiencing psychological loss, helplessness, or nihilism -- is not evidence, in any manner, of the kind of positive outlook associated with happiness. Just because we can instill in dogs a negative outlook (a psychological nihilism, so to speak) doesn't mean we could do the opposite -- ie. get them hoping and imagining about what life can be like, or what the future can bring, or what kind of dog they've been, or what kind of dog they can become, etc. These things, these conceptually-laden things are exclusive experiences of man. That's the main point of my article -- that it takes a special kind of being to be able to experience the thing we call: happiness. It's something more than mere joy.

This might help me make myself more clear: If there is one thing that happiness isn't -- it isn't transient. Happiness isn't something that you could go to bed with, for instance, but then wake up without (as is true of mere elation, or the satisfaction of current desires). Happiness is not that dependent on one's current contentment. You could be happy while being stressed out, for example -- if the stress was about how it is that you were going to successfully live your life (in the face of obstacles). I've had dogs, too. And, if there's one thing I learned from interacting with dogs for 20 years -- it's that their elation (or depression) is always transient (and always dependent on their current contentment).

And on levels of intelligence, here is a bird story. ...
An even better story is the story of the chimp in the cage who couldn't reach the bananas outside the cage. The chimp had 2 shoots of bamboo. Either one of them wasn't long enough to reach the bananas so, do you know what the chimp did? No, he didn't do what you think. He didn't reason that 1 short shoot + 1 short shoot = 1 long shoot. It didn't even dawn on him (to smash the 2 bamboo shoots together -- creating one long shoot) until after a whole lot of diddle-dallying around and hussing and fussing and throwing the sticks down on the ground in frustration.

Then, just then, he "perceived" it. What he couldn't ever conceive of before. He had thrown the shoots down and they lay there, end to end, giving the perceptual appearance of one long shoot. He ate well that day. He had great "perceptual" intelligence. But, positive evidence of conceptual intelligence: none.

I often think our understanding of the different levels of intelligence is simplistic.
Mine sure is (simplistic). Heck, I divide intelligence into only 2 kinds, perceptual and conceptual! Now how's THAT for simplistic?! However, I expect that you meant "too simplistic" when you said "simplistic." Well, if that is the case, then the very next step, of course, is to decisively show that the "simplistic" (or just, simpler) answer isn't truer than are all of its alternatives. The reason that the onus of proof is on the one staking the more complicated claims is due to the principle of parsimony -- better known as Occam's Razor. It's just a good way to go about thinking ...

;-)

Be sure that I'll be quite patient sifting through any marshalled data about that with you, Steve -- if you care to collaboratively examine the existing evidence on the matter. Feel free to contact me privately about this, too -- if you're more comfortable doing so.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/29, 9:39pm)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/29, 10:02pm)


Post 9

Monday, January 29, 2007 - 10:01pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

In dealing with the particulars of your post, I forgot to address its underlying, unifying theme (what you, in general, were saying): That there might be some level of happiness not associated with "choice."

I'm not sure that that is appropriate (rational) speculation at this point. Now I'm not saying that I'm sure it's NOT appropriate speculation, I just doubt that it IS. One of the greatest things that concepts do for us (as our epistemological tools of cognition), is to differentiate things -- especially from things which are much alike, though fundamentally different from, other things. It's the clarity that concepts bring, when dealing with a world of seemingly infinitely-continuous particulars.

Borderline cases are always a hassle (they require more precise thought -- while you are still maintaining 'thinking accuracy' -- than do simpler cases). Before you can say that there might be "some level" of happiness (not associated with "choice"), you have to state a clear conception of what happiness is -- a standard for it, by which to measure "levels" of it. I've delineated a little bit here about what happiness is, by showing what it is most definitely not. I did it this way because there's so much popular contention about happiness, and it is much easier to decisively say what something is NOT, than to decisively say what something IS.

I'm willing to listen to alternative conceptions of happiness, but I'm not yet willing to attempt to measure levels of it without them (as my own conceptual distinction of what happiness is -- doesn't "afford" for the kinds of levels of it of which you speak).

Perhaps we can start from those things integral to happiness upon which we agree. I would very much like that.

Ed


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Post 10

Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:07amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You said, "If there is one thing that happiness isn't -- it isn't transient." That's a critically important statement and was very clarifying for me.

I think you're right on a number of points. you are right that it doesn't make any sense to start applying 'happiness' in any form as a concept to non-human animals without a better understanding of happiness in general - much less animal psychology. And your statement of my engaging in inappropriate speculation was correct - I sometimes open my mouth (keyboard?) on things that are still at kind of a 'gut' level - i.e., before I've even started to think them through.

I also jumped into the discussion of your article in an inappropriate fashion - I mentioned some very minor points that came to mind, instead of talking about things central to your article. I also am a little disappointed to realize how little I know about happiness on a theoretical level. I mean, it isn't like it isn't important as a subject for us humans or like it's unrelated to my field of psychology, duh.

I appreciate your thoughtful replies.


Post 11

Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 4:02pmSanction this postReply
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Have any of y'all looked into the book - Happiness: A History ?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802142893/ref=wl_it_dp/102-1157340-5183330?ie=UTF8&coliid=IGF41EE8RGTJP&colid=1DOMKHJ3GK1X5


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Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 5:20pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I put it on my Amazon wish list - it looks fairly good in the review. Thanks.

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Post 13

Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
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Some Kind of Happiness

As one might expect from previous discussions, I disagree more and less seriously with some of the points Ed raises in this article.  For now, I will quote one paragraph and make two comments.

Ed: "But what about the potential counter-argument that, as far as their nature's go, that animals are happy, too? The argument states that animals, as long as they are following along with their natures (and animals will instinctually do just that), must be happy -- happiness just being the process of acting according to your nature. While this argument doesn't work for plants and rocks (because of the lack of sentience), it does make the appeal to sentience as sufficient for the experience of happiness. Is sentience enough? Let's once again look to Rand for more insight:"

First, ethics, unlike epistemology and metaphysics is not a primary, or prior to science, but is dependent upon the scientific exploration of human nature. While quoting Rand may be relevant, it is not in itself conclusive or sufficient to prove an argument which depends on empirical facts. Human happiness, while differing both quantitatively and qualitatively from animals' is still a biological phenomenon mediated by the same brain structures and neurotransmitters as are found in the higher animals, especially social or "pack" mammals such as horses, wolves, elephants, dolphins and so on. Humans are evolved from pack animals, namely a chimp-like African ape, and human happiness, while greater and grander than that of apes, is still an animal phenomenon. Humans, if defined typologically, are animals that happen to be rational, not rationals that happen to be animal. We share much more with animals than we differ from them.

(Be aware that I would define happiness in higher animals as spiritual flourishing, that is, mental health coupled with successful action. I would recommend that those interested read the books If Dogs Could Talk by Vilmos Csanyi and especially Shy Boy by Monty Roberts, the original "Horse Whisperer." There most certainly are happy and unhappy horses and dogs. These animals may not have the conceptual faculty to realize that they are happy, but realizing that one is happy is not the definition, of nor essential to happiness, although, in humans, it certainly helps.)

Second, higher animals, many mammals and birds especially, most emphatically do not live guided by instinct any more than humans do, as in suckling or sexual response. Wild animals must learn how to live as animals. This is why mammals raised from childhood by man must be carefully kept from identifying with humans and must also be taught how to forage and to bond to others of their own kind. The minds of most birds and mammals are very plastic, and they learn to behave by watching the actions of others of their kinds, especially the actions of their mothers. If instinct were sufficient, animals raised by man could simply be dropped off in the woods and left to their own devices. This almost always ends in tragedy, with the animals starving, being killed by hunters, or being put down as nuisances. The recent discovery of the 'mirror neuron,' first in monkeys, and then in most pack mammals again shows that animals, including humans, learn by observing their kind, not by following innate action patterns as do such more primitive creatures as insects, whose behavior truly is properly described as instinctual. Monarch butterflies travel from Canada to Mexico by instinct. Whooping Cranes must be taught to migrate, or they will die over the winter.

Ethology, neurobiology, evolutionary ecology and many sciences are of importance in understanding animal behavior. Man is not separate from the animals, but is a kind of animal. Acting as if scientific knowledge is either irrelevant, or is trumped by ethics is false and naive. Objectivism is not a substitute for knowledge, it is a tool in guiding one's acquisition of knowledge. Rand's meta-ethics as such requires only a basic understanding of the contingent nature of life. But an exploration of values, how they are physically underpinned, and how they vary, and how they integrate is an empirical matter. No one can find happiness by deducing it from formulas found in Rand's books or by copying her example. We must know ourselves through every means open to us, not pride ourselves in the acquisition of a few principles, and call it a day. From Descartes until recently, not only animals, but even infants were seen as unconscious or insentient brutes. Animals were treated as automata, children were operated on without anesthesia, and behaviorists tried even to reduce men to automata. Happy horses prance, whales breech, raptors grab each others talons and spiral, unhappy animals pace, attack others of their kind without provocation, and gnaw off their own body parts. Men are higher animals. Higher animals have feelings, and do, when they are successful, experience some kind of happiness.

Ted Keer, 31 January, 2007, NYC

(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/31, 1:12pm)


Post 14

Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 9:28amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Ted

Post 15

Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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There is another book which might be of interest - a new one just out - Dancing in the
Streets
, by Barbara Ehrenreich...  a history of collective joy.....  having to do with social expressions of joy....
(Edited by robert malcom on 1/31, 10:55am)


Post 16

Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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If the human soul had no being-at-work, no inherent and indelible activity, there could be no such moral stature, but only customs. But early on, when first trying to give content to the idea of happiness, Aristotle asks if it would make sense to think that a carpenter or shoemaker has work to do, but a human being as such is inert. His reply, of course, is that nature has given us work to do, in default of which we are necessarily unhappy, and that work is to put into action the power of reason. (1097b, 24-1098a, 4)

Note please that he does not say that everyone must be a philosopher, nor even that human life is constituted by the activity of reason, but that our work is to bring the power of logos forward into action. Later, Aristotle makes explicit that the irrational impulses are no less human than reasoning is. (1111 b, 1-2) His point is that, as human beings, our desires need not be mindless and random, but can be transformed by thinking into choices, that is desires informed by deliberation. (1113a, 11)

The characteristic human way of being-at-work is the threefold activity of seeing an end, thinking about means to it, and choosing an action. Responsible human action depends upon the combining of all the powers of the soul: perception, imagination, reasoning, and desiring. These are all things that are at work in us all the time. Good parental training does not produce them, or mold them, or alter them, but sets them free to be effective in action. This is the way in which, according to Aristotle, despite the contributions of parents, society, and nature, we are the co-authors of the active states of our own souls.
--http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/aris-eth.htm


True happiness (eudaimonia) is an activity of the soul (psuchç) in accordance with complete virtue (aretç) in a complete life sufficiently equipped with internal and external goods.
--http://www.egr.uri.edu/ime/Faculty/Jones/egr316/eudaimonia.htm

Ted, it is clear from these quotes (actually, my tacit acceptance of their truth), that we have different conceptions of "happiness." Having unshared fundamentals, we are unlikely to reach any kind of resolution on this matter. With that in mind, I will still go ahead and criticize your contribution to this thread -- for these 2 reasons ...

1) I love a mental challenge
2) To engage the minds of third-party viewers

Ted, you write ...

First, ethics, unlike epistemology and metaphysics is not a primary, or prior to science, but is dependent upon the scientific exploration of human nature.
While I agree that ethics is not a primary, but dependent on metaphysical facts and their logical integration -- I disagree with the notion that ethics is dependent on the findings of the special sciences. This is so because I adopt a normative view of ethics, as opposed to the descriptive view of ethics that your quote implies.

You continue ...
Human happiness, while differing both quantitatively and qualitatively from animals' is still a biological phenomenon mediated by the same brain structures and neurotransmitters as are found in the higher animals ...

I'm not sure where you are going with this, Ted, by calling human happiness a biological (deals with living organisms and vital processes) phenomenon. And this business of reducing an experience so rich and vast as happiness down to the firing of some neurons or the release of some neurochemicals just seems to me to be reductive materialism (ie. something absurd) dressed up in scientific jargon.

You continue ...
We share much more with animals than we differ from them.
This statement begs the question. You see, it doesn't matter what the ultimate answer is -- whether when, every thing shared is added up and then compared to everything not, whether the shared outweighs the not-shared -- the question ought to be about whether something specific (a 'happiness capacity') is shared.

You continue ...
I would define happiness in higher animals as spiritual flourishing, that is, mental health coupled with successful action.
My problem with this definition is technical: You can't HAVE mental health without successful action -- and that's because of the kind of entity you are.

You continue ...
There most certainly are happy and unhappy horses and dogs.
This reminds me of a quote:
"Did you ever see an unhappy horse? Did you ever see bird that had the blues? One reason why birds and horses are not unhappy is because they are not trying to impress other birds and horses."--Dale Carnegie  
;-)

Anyway, you're ascribing 'happiness/unhappiness' to the dogs and horses. This is merely the consequence of your different view of happiness. When looking at the same animals, I'd describe their attitudinal differences to things like temperament, or to contingencies related to how humans have treated them (note how humans introduce the Man-Made into the otherwise Metaphysical -- ie. wild -- life of animals).

You continue ...
Second, higher animals, many mammals and birds especially, most emphatically do not live guided by instinct any more than humans do, as in suckling or sexual response. Wild animals must learn how to live as animals. This is why mammals raised from childhood by man must be carefully kept ... . If instinct were sufficient, animals raised by man could simply be dropped off in the woods and left to their own devices. This almost always ends in tragedy, with the animals starving ...
The phenomenon that you are describing is a Man-Made phenomenon (rather than being a Metaphysical phenomenon, or 'fact' of nature -- if you will). It is an unnatural phenomenon. Instincts evolved to sustain animal life in the wild; for animals born in the wild, raised in the wild, etc. To use this unnatural contingency in order to infer that animals, necessarily, aren't more guided by instincts than humans -- is a fallacy. When every member of a wild-type species performs the same life actions -- then you can be sure that instinct (rather than free choice) is guiding their behavior. Here are some telling examples (from nhes.org) ...

"Rabbits dig a system of complex underground burrows called a warren."
--Maybe not all species of rabbits build these warrens, but all members of the same species do -- and they're all built in the same way.

"The beaver builds its lodge in the pond. Only part of the lodge shows above the water. If you look at a lodge from shore, you won't see an entry into it. That's because all entrances lie underwater."
--Did you catch that? ALL entrances lie underwater. No exceptions. The reason? Because there's never been a dissenting beaver? No. It's because beavers aren't "choosing" to do things the way that they do, the way that they all do, the way that they all have always done.

"The squirrel is an energetic builder that may make two types of homes. A squirrel that finds a cavity in a tree will use it as a home. Old holes made by woodpeckers are common. But when suitable homes are not available, a squirrel builds a home called a dray. Here they are safe from most enemies.
  The squirrel builds a dray in the fork of a tree where it can't be shaken loose by strong winds. The squirrel breaks off branches and drops them on the fork. On top of the branches it places twigs and leaves. The squirrel forms a round hollow in the center of the structure with an entrance on one side."
--Maybe not all species of squirrels build these drays, but all members of the same species do (at least those not finding tree holes) -- and they're all built in the same way.

... so, bringing up the "mirror neuron" -- in order to fortify your case that higher animals aren't very much guided by instincts -- doesn't work. You see, the "learning" that animals are doing when they copy the behavior of other animals is merely "rote learning" (ie. automatic memorization). And memory is a perceptual faculty that integrates well with instinct (it requires no mental construct of a thinking, choosing animal).

You continue ...
No one can find happiness by deducing it from formulas ...
This reminds me of a formula:

Desire + (Emotion / Reason) x (Imagination - Doubt) + (Action x Expectation) + Persistence = Happiness
--objectivehappiness.com

;-)

Of course memorizing some formula isn't sufficient for building the kind of life and character that would entail the experience of human happiness. I'm not saying THAT. But the "acquisition of a few principles" is definitely a step in the right direction. Think of the absurd idea of acting WITHOUT principles. Man can't survive like THAT. Man is the kind of entity that survives by forming principles of action (rather than relying on instinct, backed up by some sharp fangs and claws).

You continue ...

Happy horses prance ...
But what about merely, transiently-excited horses, Ted? Don't they prance, too? How, pray-tell, could you differentiate happy horses from the merely excited ones? Do you equate happiness with mere excitement -- so that you wouldn't HAVE to differentiate and thus be more precise about your own conception of what it is that happiness is? Maybe the question is unfair, but your ascription of "some kind of happiness" to animals is just too vague to leave me comfortable.

Ed


Post 17

Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Please fix the spacing, font size, and boldness, I am being made very unhappy! I can't read what you've written without being distracted by the way it is typeset.

I do agree that a definition of happiness is necessary, and that will be the subject of my next post, which won't come in a hasty hurry. As for reductionism, since you bought it, read what Mayr has to say on the subject (I assume he addresses it in What Evolution Is) and if not, read the review of him that I posted here on the Limits of Rational Egoism thread. My anti-reductionist views will be quite clear.

Ted

Post 18

Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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I'm trying, Ted! But I couldn't FIX the font, etc! Aaaaaagh!!!!

:-O

Ed



Post 19

Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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Just repost it then. Otherwise, trying to read it is going to give me an epileptic fit, a la Andromeda Strain.

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