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Post 40

Sunday, March 4, 2007 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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Fetal Rights:

Implication of a Supposed Ought

Tibor Machan

(from Liberty Magazine)

 

Among the many issues considered in connection with the abortion controversy, there is one that has, unfortunately, received little attention. To wit, if the “pro-life” position is roughly right—that is, if conception of a human being entails a serious right to life for the conceptus—then certain radical legal consequences follow. If zygotes, embryos, and fetuses have a serious right to life, then miscarriages or spontaneous abortions must become subjects of extensive and constant police scrutiny.

Every state has some public policy regarding police investigation of unexplained deaths and homicides. (See, Wayne R. LaFave & Gerold H. Israel, Criminal Procedure [St. Paul, Minnesota]; West Publishing Company, 1985], Chapter 1.) The authorities must determine that there is no reasonable ground for suspecting murder or some other variety of illegal killing. Now, if a fetus or zygote has a right to life, it follows that any activity on the part of the pregnant woman (or even a companion or stranger) that might result in a miscarriage (say, arising from some sport or a minor traffic mishap) could constitute negligent homicide. (See Criminal Law 21 Am Jur 2nd Par. 132; Model Penal Code Article 210, Section 210.1 & 210.4 Criminal and negligent homicide [1962]; Commonweath v. Nelansky, 55 N.E. 2nd 902 [MA. 1944].

In the death of an adult or even a child, the public accessibility of the deceased makes it relatively easy to determine whether foul play reasonably can be assumed.  Innumerable forensic methods and devices exist for this purpose. Simply checking the body will usually provide investigators with sufficient information to determine whether there is ground for suspecting a crime. Often there are members of the public well-acquainted with the deceased, and these friends, family and neighbors can testify to suspicious circumstances, history, and the like. The same situation, however, does not apply in the case of deceased zygotes.

Whatever it is that is created at conception—whether it is something that is human or something that is only potentially human—it is often not known to exist until long after conception. Women do not know that they are pregnant immediately after they have conceived. The plain fact is that “unborn children” are hidden for several weeks from the kind of public exposure that even babies enjoy. While in advanced civilizations many of these unborn are monitored by physicians, this usually occurs only after having lived and been vulnerable to mistreatment for several weeks. This alone seems to violate the “ought implies can” provision of ethics, which state that if someone is required to act in a particular way, it must be possible for that person to carry out the responsibility. The veil of ignorance that surrounds the early stages of pregnancy causes many problems unforeseen by the advocate of fetal rights.

Even if immediate knowledge of conception were possible for a pregnant woman, the situation would be the same. What is required is public knowledge as well as private knowledge. It is the rights-protecting authorities who must be able to know of the existence of the embryo, zygote or fetus in order to protect their rights. This requirement is not easy to meet.

Of course, one could imagine the following: At the moment of any possible conception—that is, whenever heterosexual intercourse takes place between fertile parties—an extensive machinery of examination, registration and supervision of possible pregnancies would be generated. Every woman would have the constant duty to check whether she is pregnant. If the answer is in the affirmative, the woman would immediately have to register the conception of the new human being. She would then have to submit to constant inspection and supervision, so as not to permit the possibility of a neglectful miscarriage—for example, from sports, recreation, work, or play, or any of a number of other activities.

This kind of “solution” however, conflicts with the existence of the rights of persons to not have their lives unreasonably scrutinized by authorities—or, as the 4th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution puts it, “against unreasonable searches.” The threat to the rights of possible parents would be enormous—indeed, to do their duty, governments must violate human rights on numerous fronts. A veritable police state would have to be established so as to uphold ordinary justice.

This extraordinary extension of state power can also be considered a violation of the “ought implies can” provision, although in a somewhat complicated sense. Ought not only implies can in a physical sense, but also in a moral sense: a moral obligation must not require immoral acts. Rights must be compossible—the human right of a fetus cannot contradict the equally basic human right of anyone else (although some prima facia rights theories allow for the ranking of human rights). Accordingly, even if all pregnancies could be detected immediately upon conception, the institutional arrangements required for this would involve extensive rights violations and thus, make discovery of negligence and other criminal conduct during pregnancy morally impossible.

A legal policy consistent with the idea that the human being is formed at conception could not be carried out in a society that respects the sovereignty of all of its citizens, including pregnant women. If a law is unenforceable in principle, it is inoperative. This, in turn, suggests that the “pro-life” position implies a set of legal consequences that are impossible in the very society that supposedly recognizes the rights of its citizens in all cases other than the unborn. If we add to these considerations the possibility that some alternative theory of when a human being comes into existence makes better sense and does not imply the widespread official violation of individual rights, then the case against the “pro-life” position seems very strong indeed. Before it could even be considered sound, it would have to be shown that the widespread intrusion into the lives of persons discussed here is not implied by the “pro-life” doctrine.

The normal respect for and protection of individual rights cannot be extended to the being that is created by conception—not, at least, without absurd invasion of the rights of adult human individuals.



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Post 41

Sunday, March 4, 2007 - 12:12pmSanction this postReply
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Further noting - while brain activity may be observed in the 24th week or so, it is overlooking the layered development of the brain activity which is needed to be cleared - namely that not all brain activity as such is human activity, only that which is cognitive, for the rest is no more than is found among the lower animals, of which rights do not rationally apply....

so the question then becomes - when does the brain development reach to the human level, wherein cognitive activity is viable and activated?
 
Remember, it is sapiancy which makes for determining rights, not sentiency.....

(Edited by robert malcom on 3/04, 12:14pm)


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Post 42

Sunday, March 4, 2007 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Mike E. said:" It is one thing to say that an unwanted child or infant has "the right to life" even if they are unwanted by their parent or parents. How many people saying this are clamoring for the chance to raise and support these children themselves?"

Exactly. I've been thinking along the same line too. I always felt that children only have as much rights as what their parents are able to give them.  If parents starve, their children naturally would starve too. Although there are plenty of charity in US society that are willing to take care of the abandoned children, it has not always been so and is still not so in some other countries. Although US is a rich country, still, is it reasonable to implicitly force you or me to pay for "the right of life" of other people's children? If late-term abortion is strictly banned, are you willing to pay for the mother's much higher medical bill and expanses (since she won't be able to work for several months) and for raising the child?


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Post 43

Sunday, March 4, 2007 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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>I have still not heard from one person in this debate - not one - whether they think that a woman is or is not evading what is going on inside her, if she cannot decide to abort after 120 days of consideration.

Ted, anything could happen at any point during a woman's pregnancy. Things could even happen after the child is born. What if the woman with her new born child is abandoned and lost source of their livelihood? What should they do then?


Post 44

Sunday, March 4, 2007 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Hong, for addressing me.

As for your first post, and hardships that might befall, economic arguments fall under the ethics of emergencies and the responsibilities of adults, and are not relevant to the discussion of abortion on demand. If I knew that the earth would end tomorrow in a slow roasting, I would kill my children mercifully the night before. But that is a side issue. Here we are considering killing a fetus for some reason other than the mother's life or the end of the world.

If the fetus is at some point a person, then whatever happens externally is never an excuse to actively kill the fetus, which is what late term abortion is. (The same goes for infanticide.) I have no problem with a woman giving up her child if circumstances become such that she cannot support it. But in the context of civilized society, nothing justifies her actively killing the child.

As for my stance on abortion, I would simply make late term abortions criminal grounds for imprisonment and loss of license. I do not include failing to resuscitate a baby with a fatal defect in the same class as sticking a vacuum tube in the head of a healthy baby in order to kill it just because - well why exactly? Just to put off what could have been done before? I have wanted a dog of my own since I moved out of my parents 20 years ago. I have literally had dogs handed to me. But I knew the consequences, and the responsibilities, and could make my decision at that moment, not after putting the thouht out of mind for four months. Given the value of human life and the time a pregnant woman has to act, I see late term abortion as just as reprehensible as buying a puppy for Christmas and drowning it at Easter, except that babies are more sacred than puppies. A woman's desire to have sex when her situation is not secure - and then to wait until the fteus is on the vere of personhhod before acting is not resposiblity or choice but irresponsibilty and evasion.

All sorts of birth control is currently leal, the pill, the day after pill, and so on. A woman knows that by engaging in sex, she is risking pregnancy. I know this, I had a long term relationship in college where every act of intercourse was flirtation with disaster. Pregnancy is neither a disease nor unpredictable. And if external circumstances alone justify killing something that is not yet explicitly conceptual and which is dependent upon you for its needs, then all those here who support abortion on demand should have no problem with infanticide. I think Luke's stance is in a way more consistent than the current 56-58 percent voting for full-term abortions.

Ted Keer

I have sanctioned your second post as a courtesy for actually offering an argument.

Also, since I assume this post will have your attention, I am curious if you think I was off base on anything I said about Mandarin in the Ayn/China thread.
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 3/04, 8:07pm)


Post 45

Monday, March 5, 2007 - 6:48amSanction this postReply
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Ted: "I have still not heard from one person in this debate - not one - whether they think that a woman is or is not evading what is going on inside her, if she cannot decide to abort after 120 days of consideration."

Sam: "There is no excuse for delaying abortion to the stage.of viability."

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/PollDiscussions/0130.shtml#10

Sam

(Edited by Sam Erica on 3/05, 7:01am)


Post 46

Monday, March 5, 2007 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
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Hi Ted,
I guess I really don't know if there could be any other reason for an abortion except impossible economical hardship. As for your stance on late-term abortion, yes, I supposed you may force the women to bring the pregnancy to full-term. But how would you propose to deal with her expenses (loss of work, medical cost, etc)? Or maybe the adopters would pay for that, assuming they are always willing and ready. ;-)

>I am curious if you think I was off base on anything I said about Mandarin in the Ayn/China thread.

I am not really sure what's the big deal about Mandarin in the Ayn/China thread. Mandarin is basically the "Beijing dialect". Since Beijing has been the capital of China since Yuan dynasty (1271-present), it's only natural that officials adopted it's spoken language. And it is very good thing to have an official spoken language in such a big country as China. Otherwise I won't understand anything and won't be understood if I go to Shanghai, Sichuan or Canton!

Actually, there is another thing that I am curious about.  You mentioned "nefareous Confucionist program", what exactly were you talking about?

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 3/05, 9:22am)


Post 47

Monday, March 5, 2007 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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The 'stage of viability', actually, is when they are born.... to claim otherwise is to claim that the [pick a  _______] time picked before this natural process is thus a 'wasted' time by nature, with the fetus having thus 'no business' staying within the womb...... if, however, you realize that the time remaining in the womb serves a viabilityness, then you cannot also claim that before that birthing time is when the fetus can 'claim rights' of being a viable being....  as said before, sentiency is NOT the criteria of rights, whereas sapiancy is, since rights pertain to the ability to think - that is, the capacity, speciwise, to be aware of these rights and be able to apply them to their like kind [is why animals as such do not have rights, as they are unable to be aware of them, far less to be able to apply them]...

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Post 48

Monday, March 5, 2007 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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 This post was meant for another thread.

(Edited by Erica Schulz on 3/05, 7:29pm)


Post 49

Monday, March 5, 2007 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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Sam & Tibor, I guess the best way for us to leave off this discussion would be for us to aree that we do believe that it is valid for some late term-abortions to be regualted. Since the rest are details of fact, I will be happy to bring up the matter again once we sit together in the legislature, or we or our offspring come to us for advice on the matter.

Robert, I'll just have to repeat that mother's milk is not optional, and that viability defined as birth is more a question of location than the independence of the child. One might ask (if viability is what matters) why late term pregnancies should not just be induced early, rather than late term fetuses killed actively.

I think enough said.

Ted

Post 50

Monday, March 5, 2007 - 9:44pmSanction this postReply
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Hong, I have no problem with the legality of early term abortions, which might be less happy than simple contraception, but which are not the killing of a sentient being (and here R. Malcom & I part ways, as I worry about human sentience, not sapience, seeing the human (constitutional, not definitional) component as essential.) But I do not see forbidding late term abortions as forcing the mother to do anything, but rather as preventing her from using lethal force to kill a child which she might otherwise give up to adoption. I would find a doctor who engaged in such practices as culpable as a mother, and one could not say that the law goes around forcing doctors not to enggage in partial birth abortions, just as one does not say that the law prevents killers from commiting murders. It is the reverse, we punish such initiations of force after the fact.

=====

As for Mandarin, I assumed that it was simply the standard dialect, based upon the dynasty that brought it to prominence. I was wonderingg if perhaps other southern Chinese thought that the use of Mandarin was in some way something more than just a reconition than the fact that rule is centered in the north.

My reference to nefarious Confucianist plots was in response to Phil Osbourne. He seemed to be implying that since the Mandarin system of buraeucrats required one to study Confucius, and that since the Mandarin dialect was named by westerners for these bureaucrats, that somehow some sort of ideological mischief, in furtherance of some secret plot by followers of Confucius, was bein perpetrated by the fact that Mandarin and not some other dialect is used as the stadard, or that Confucian thought was in some way perverting the use of the standard dialect (more than is the lies of the communist party) along the lines of politically correct speech, or doublethink in terms of the writings of George Orwell.

In otherwords, I doubted that there was anything sneaky going on having to do with Confucian philosophy and Mandarain as opposed to Hakka or Cantonese, and wanted to know if I was mistaken.

Like I said, I thought that complaining about the fact that Chinese use Mandarin would be like complaining that Catholics use Latin or Jews use Hebrew.

Ted Keer



Post 51

Monday, March 5, 2007 - 11:16pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

You say you are concerned with human sentience, but is it valid to say that the 'hardware' being in place is the same as human awareness?  When is a form of human awareness there?  Our rights arise out of that capacity.  I suspect that it is much later in time.  Do we know?

The other question is about your distinction on late term abortions.  Where you distinguish between not forcing the woman to do anything, but rather as preventing her from using lethal force to kill the fetus/child.  What if the baby/fetus were removed by an induced labor despite being premature and then the woman has no more to do with it?  She hasn't used lethal force but the premie will die if it is too early.  What if she takes the baby home but doesn't feed it - what I'm suggesting is that the distinction is a little thin.

I think that in the absence of evidence of our uniquely human form of awareness being functional the mother's right to her body prevails - the potential is not the actual.


Post 52

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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Response to Ted’s post #50.  Since this is completely off-topic for this thread I am moving it to the Ayn/China thread here.
 

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 3/06, 9:20am)


Post 53

Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 12:54pmSanction this postReply
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Robert:

     Re your post #19...thanx. Explicates my point better than I.

LLAP
J:D


Post 54

Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Bob Enright:

     Re your post #25, no: "We all know it [brain function {average!}] is going to start by the 24th week. So what?...by aborting it you are still killing a human life" is NOT true!  Get a grip on your insults!

     A blastula has nothing worth talking about beyond DNA; an embryo organismically barely more. However, if your view of 'human life' is based on nothing more than mere physical 'meat' (molecular or more physically advanced), then clearly you are a lone arguer in an Objectivist forum, and find the idea of a consciousness/'spirit' irrelevent. --- GL.

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 3/08, 1:22pm)


Post 55

Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:
      Ummm...your post #29 is a bit un-necessary. The thread was about abortion, per se, not the most controversial sub-type ('partial-birth') of it. Consider showing a mere D&C of a just-fertilized egg; not so emotionally-filled 'sensationalistic' looking, really. Showing this reminds me of the emotionally/empathic oriented 'ultra-sound' movie a while ago showing an abortion on a late-term fetus: 'rational-argument' is irrelvent; sympathetic aversion is all that was intended.

 LLAP
J:D


Post 56

Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

      O-t-other-h, us 'pro'-abortion allowers do have to deal with the morality of this; this is the territory to 'draw lines'...or...? Maybe it was proper that you brought up PBA.

      Re this specific area, I'm still beside myself on it, excepting "Why the f***n hell did the procrastinating bitch wait so long?"...and...the mother's health alternative without such.
     Such is the territory type showing the NEED to objectively define 'rights'...and especially, their objectively identifiable, meaningful,  source.
 LLAP
J:D


Post 57

Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
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Addendum:

     As T. Machan points out in post #37, let's not use-as-presumed, the term 'innocent' too loosely. Kittens are 'innocent' in the same, overly-broad and emotionally-meant, moral sense.

LLAP
J:D


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