About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5


Post 100

Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A will can either be an orchestrator of a symphony of values, or a mere recording of that symphony. All that you've been saying implies the latter.
No, it doesn't. A will or an act of choice is not a "recording" of a value; it's an intentional, goal-directed action aimed at achieving a value.
How do value hierarchies ever change, Bill? Can you answer that?
Yes, they change as a result of new knowledge or experience.

- Bill

Post 101

Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 7:34amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think I am past mis-communication with Bill, and that the differences between us are emphasis and labeling. He says people choose and will quite regularly. These are terms of volition, and I think he's a "closet volitionist." I also thought it revealing that he approvingly used Aristotle's "final causation" not long ago. But he labels himself some sort of determinist or compatibalist.

At a very concrete level, we find much to agree with. Take the "Bill gets hungry and eats scenario" I created. My emphasis was on the time, the thought, the alternatives, and the intermediate choices before the final choice was made. Value is there, but it doesn't get primary emphasis. In response Bill grants that time and thought was involved, but he doesn't emphacize them. He emphacizes value and "glides over" intermediate choices.

Note how Ayn Rand describes free will or volition in Galt’s speech: "that which you call ‘free will’ is your mind’s freedom to think or not, the only will you have, your only freedom, the choice that controls all the choices you make and determines your life and character.” Here thinking is the most important ingredient by far. "Value" isn't even mentioned (but not irrelevant).

Consider this different scenario: Bill is hungry. He is motivated to eat. He values food highly. He eats the first food he sees. [End] Very little thought. Very little choosing. It's very different from the earlier scenario. Other than result, the difference is Ayn Rand's most important ingredient.

Post 102

Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 1:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The key difference between my view and Rand's is that Rand is not a determinist when it comes to the choice to think or not to think. She doesn't believe that it's determined by a value judgment, whereas I do. Other than that, I'm in agreement with her on its importance. I didn't emphasize it, because I was attempting to explain the causes of that choice. Rand doesn't believe that the choice is caused by anything, because she believes it's psychologically free. Since I don't believe it's psychologically free, I'm required to give an account of what underlies and motivates it; hence, the emphasis on values and value judgments.

- Bill

Post 103

Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill D.,

Thanks for your explanation.

You wrote:

Rand doesn't believe that the choice is caused by anything, because she believes it's psychologically free.
Can you cite support for this in Rand's words (not Peikoff's)? I'm inclined to think Rand held the opposite. "The will does not have to be without reason, or motivation, in order to be free. One's act may be motivated by an outside reason, but the choice of that reason is our free will" (Journals of Ayn Rand, p. 68 pb). "He discovers that he has the capacity of choice" (p. 554). "His first desires are given to him by nature; they are the ones that he needs directly for his body, such as food, warmth, etc. Only these desires are provided by nature and they teach him the concept of desire. Everything else from then on proceed from his mind" (p. 554-5). 


Post 104

Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I wrote, "Rand doesn't believe that the choice is caused by anything, because she believes it's psychologically free." Merlin replied,
Can you cite support for this in Rand's words (not Peikoff's)? I'm inclined to think Rand held the opposite. "The will does not have to be without reason, or motivation, in order to be free. One's act may be motivated by an outside reason, but the choice of that reason is our free will" (Journals of Ayn Rand, p. 68 pb).
Here she says that the reason for the choice is itself something one freely chooses, which is not my view at all; for I would ask: is there a reason for one's choice of the reason? If there is, then either that reason is chosen or it is not. If it is, then we must come eventually to a reason that is not, otherwise we have an infinite regress with each reason's depending on a choice, which depends on a reason, which, in turn, depends on a choice, etc. But if the initial reason is not itself chosen, then on what grounds is it claimed that any of the subsequent reasons are? If a choice requires a reason, then a reason cannot require a choice. Since a reason is that for the sake of which one makes the choice, it must necessarily precede any act of choice. Choice presupposes a reason (in the form of an end or goal); a reason doesn't presuppose a choice. If it did, the choice would not be made for the sake of any end or goal and would, therefore, be entirely pointless.

Consider: I have a reason to vote for the capitalist over the socialist, but it's not a reason that I can choose to accept or reject, any more than I can choose to accept or reject my reasons for endorsing capitalism over socialism. If I could freely choose to accept or reject my philosophical values, they wouldn't mean anything to me. They'd be entirely arbitrary and of no personal value.

Rand continues,
"He discovers that he has the capacity of choice" (p. 554). "His first desires are given to him by nature; they are the ones that he needs directly for his body, such as food, warmth, etc. Only these desires are provided by nature and they teach him the concept of desire. Everything else from then on proceed from his mind" (p. 554-5).
I agree with this, but a person's conceptual values are also determined by his knowledge, experience, education, etc. He adopts his philosophical convictions for a reason, and that reason is not something he freely chooses. I didn't freely choose to accept Objectivism over some other philosophy, like Marxism or Existentialism. If I had, I could just as well have chosen to adopt an alternative view, given the same knowledge and understanding. But that's absurd. If I understand that two plus two equal four, then I cannot choose to believe that they equal five. If I understand that capitalism is better than socialism, then I cannot choose to believe that socialism is better than capitalism. If I understand that, under a given set of conditions, choosing to think is better than the alternative, then I cannot choose to believe that the alternative is better. One does not choose one's reasons either for one's choices or for one's abstract values and philosophical convictions.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 5/20, 5:26pm)

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 5/20, 5:28pm)


Post 105

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill D.,

I was hoping you would cite something else in Rand's words as stronger evidence for your claim.

I interpreted the quote from Rand to say that she didn't think choices were made absent prior conditions, and indeed motivation is an important prior condition. I also took her to say "free" doesn't mean "anything goes". It's not clear to me what she meant by the last sentence. It would have been clearer if she had said "the choice to think or act or how to act on that reason is our free will", but it's debatable whether or not that is what she meant.

You interpret the quote from Rand to mean something quite different, this:

Here she says that the reason for the choice is itself something one freely chooses, which is not my view at all.
Firstly, what do you mean by "freely"? "Anything goes" or there are alternatives? In the above and your following comments you seem to glide over her including "motivation". And surely at least hunger, for example, is not something one chooses.

You also say:

Choice presupposes a reason (in the form of an end or goal); a reason doesn't presuppose a choice.
I don't think it's always that simple. Suppose you decide to remodel your house. You think about it and make some choices about how more exactly you want it done. This may generate some different or more specific goals. Call them instrumental ones to contrast them with the original goal or "final cause" in Aristotle's terminology. In this case instrumental goals are the "reason", or motivation, and they presuppose a choice.

You respond to the other quotes from Rand:

I agree with this, but a person's conceptual values are also determined by his knowledge, experience, education, etc.
I doubt that Rand would have disagreed, although she may have quibbled with "determined by."

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 5/21, 6:35am)


Post 106

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Regarding Rand's statement that "One's act [of will] may be motivated by an outside reason, but the choice of that reason is our free will," I wrote, "Here she says that the reason for the choice is itself something one freely chooses, which is not my view at all."

Merlin replied,
Firstly, what do you mean by "freely"? "Anything goes" or there are alternatives?
Just that you were psychologically free to have made an alternative choice -- that you didn't have to make that choice.
In the above and your following comments you seem to glide over her including "motivation". And surely at least hunger, for example, is not something one chooses.
That's a good point. So, according to her, it isn't the case that one must choose one's reason for eating, i.e., hunger; only the reason for other, more abstract choices. But why only the reason for other, more abstract choices? If hunger is a sufficient reason for eating, then why, for example, can't curiosity be a sufficient reason for learning; understanding, a sufficient reason for belief; love, a sufficient reason for marriage, etc.? In any case, a reason for a choice is not something one chooses. Choosing it doesn't make it a reason, if it wasn't already one. And if it was already a reason, then choosing it isn't necessary.

I wrote, "Choice presupposes a reason (in the form of an end or goal); a reason doesn't presuppose a choice."
I don't think it's always that simple. Suppose you decide to remodel your house. You think about it and make some choices about how more exactly you want it done. This may generate some different or more specific goals. Call them instrumental ones to contrast them with the original goal or "final cause" in Aristotle's terminology. In this case instrumental goals are the "reason", or motivation, and they presuppose a choice.
I meant that a reason doesn't presuppose a choice in the sense that it presupposes choosing your motivation for making the choice. Obviously, some reasons can be generated by prior choices, but that's not the sense in which I understood Rand's statement. I believe that the meaning of her statement is best expressed by Peikoff in OPAR:
Man's actions do have causes; he does choose a course of behavior for a reason -- but this does not make the course determined or the choice unreal. It does not, because man himself decides what are to be the governing reasons. Man chooses the causes that shape his actions.

"To say that a higher-level choice was caused is to say: there was a reason behind it, but other reasons were possible under the circumstances, and the individual himself made the selection among them. (p. 65)
This doesn't make any sense to me -- that one freely selects ones reasons for choosing a course of action. Either one has a reason for choosing a particular action over the alternatives, or one doesn't. If one does, then no choice is necessary; if one doesn't, then none is possible.

But there's a further wrinkle in the Objectivist theory of volition. In an earlier section of the same chapter, Peikoff writes:
There can be no intellectual factor which makes a man decide to become aware or which even partly explains such a decision: to grasp such a factor, he must already be aware. For the same reason, there can be no motive or value judgment which precedes consciousness and which induces a man to become conscious. The decision to perceive reality must precede value judgments. Otherwise, values have no source in one's cognition of reality and thus become delusions. Values do not lead to consciousness; consciousness is what leads to values.

In short, it is invalid to ask: why did a man choose to focus? There is no such "why." There is only the fact that a man chose. He chose the effort of consciousness, or he chose non-effort and unconsciousness. (pp. 59, 60)
Compare Peikoff's statement with the one by Rand that I quoted in Post #17 of this thread: "Why does [an infant] learn to focus [his eyes]? Because he's trying to see -- to perceive. Similarly, an infant or young child learns to focus his mind in the form of wanting to know something -- to understand clearly." (Ayn Rand Answers, p. 154) So much for Peikoff's claim that "it is invalid to ask: why did a man choose to focus?"

What makes Peikoff's claim all the more surprising (besides the fact that it directly contradicts Rand's) is that if his claim were true, "the decision to perceive reality" could not be judged as a moral imperative, in which case, one could not be held morally responsible for it. Prior to consciousness or value judgments, there is no way for a person to know that he ought to perceive reality. Nor could such an act even be viewed as a "choice" or "decision," since that would imply an awareness of alternatives and a prior evaluation of their relative merits.

I don't think it's any exaggeration to say that the Objectivist case for volition is incoherent. Even the most plausible expression of it -- that one's choices (including the choice to focus) are motivated by a reason -- is inadequate, because the motivation is itself regarded as something one chooses.

- Bill


Post 107

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill Dwyer wrote:
Compare Peikoff's statement with the one by Rand that I quoted in Post #17 of this thread: "Why does [an infant] learn to focus [his eyes]? Because he's trying to see -- to perceive. Similarly, an infant or young child learns to focus his mind in the form of wanting to know something -- to understand clearly." (Ayn Rand Answers, p. 154) So much for Peikoff's claim that "it is invalid to ask: why did a man choose to focus?"
 Agreed. That claim is precisely why I included the first parenthetical phrase in #103.



Post 108

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Merlin: "The will does not have to be without reason, or motivation, in order to be free. One's act may be motivated by an outside reason, but the choice of that reason is our free will" (Journals of Ayn Rand, p. 68 pb).

This is a valuable quote. I read it as providing more evidence for the position I've stated. Namely, that Ayn Rand (unlike many other philosophers, whose conception of free will is still invoked by many Objectivists) held that man's free will resides in which values he chooses as the cause of his actions --not in which actions he chooses consistent or inconsistent with his values. While his act was determined (motivated) by what he valued (an outside reason), he was the one who chose that value initially (the power of free will).

Post 109

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Continuing with the Rand quote:

"An example of the determinists: if a man drinks a glass of water, he does it because he is thirsty, therefore his will isn't free, it's motivated by his physical condition. But he drinks the glass of water because he needs it and decides that he wants to drink it. If his sweetheart's life had depended on his not drinking that water, he probably would not have touched it, no matter what his thirst. Or if it were a question of his life or hers, he would have to select and make the decision. In other words, he drinks because he's thirsty, but it is not the thirst that determines his action, the thirst only motivates it. A motivation is not a reason." (pp. 68, 69)

Here is how a determinist would respond to Rand's argument. The determinist would say that, contrary to Rand, the man in her example doesn't "decide" that he wants to drink the water. He decides to drink the water, because he wants to. His desire for the water -- i.e., his thirst -- is not determined by a decision, but by his physical condition and his need for the water. Of course, if his sweetheart's life had depended on his not drinking the water, then he probably would not have touched it, because he values his sweetheart's life more than satisfying his thirst, which only goes to show that it really is his values that determine his choice. If he abstains from drinking the water in order to save her life, then that demonstrates that he values saving her life more than satisfying his thirst, which proves that he really wasn't motivated to drink the water under those circumstances, since doing so would have caused her demise. He was motivated instead to abstain from drinking it. Contrary to Rand, a motivation is indeed a reason.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 5/21, 9:56pm)


Post 110

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 4:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill W.,

I agree with what you say except as follows.

In what you quoted, she said "A motivation is not a reason." You disagreed, and I agree with your point. However, in the part I quoted in #104, which immediately precedes your quote, she used "reason" as functionally similar to motivation. Hence, the first time she used reason and motivation as not mutually exclusive and the second time as mutually exclusive.

So we have two choices. She contradicted herself or she used "reason" in two different senses. Choosing the former, you can say "gotcha" and the analysis ends. Choosing the latter, which I charitably do, then there is more to explain. Here is a definition of reason from www.dictionary.com:
n.
1. The basis or motive for an action, decision, or conviction. See Usage Notes at because, why.
2. A declaration made to explain or justify action, decision, or conviction: inquired about her reason for leaving.
3. An underlying fact or cause that provides logical sense for a premise or occurrence: There is reason to believe that the accused did not commit this crime.
4. The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
5. Good judgment; sound sense.
6. A normal mental state; sanity: He has lost his reason.
7. Logic A premise, usually the minor premise, of an argument.

I think she used reason the first time in sense 1 and the second time in sense 4.

Secondly, you said "his values that determine his choice." You again use "determine" to mean cause, necessitate or a synonym. But "determine" is also a synonym for decide. A volitionist could describe the same situation with "he decides his choice based on his values" or something similar. You even say it that way a bit earlier. (That's why I call you a "closet volitionist." (-:) But many determinists would not.

P.S. Regarding Rand's sentence "A motivation is not a reason", do you think this is maybe where Peikoff came up with his 'there is no why'? He just ripped it out of context, as if reason and motivation are mutually exclusive and a motivation can't be a 'why'?

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 5/22, 8:36am)


Post 111

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Merlin, you wrote,
In what you quoted, she said "A motivation is not a reason." You disagreed, and I agree with your point. However, in the part I quoted in #104, which immediately precedes your quote, she used "reason" as functionally similar to motivation. Hence, the first time she used reason and motivation as not mutually exclusive and the second time as mutually exclusive.
Oh, very good observation. I didn't spot the inconsistency.
So we have two choices. She contradicted herself or she used "reason" in two different senses. Choosing the former, you can say "gotcha" and the analysis ends.
No, no. That's not my argument. In fact, I wasn't even aware that she used the word in two different senses. My point was that in the part I quoted in Post #109, she is saying that the man is motivated to drink the water, even though he chooses not to in order to spare his sweetheart's life. So, he is motivated to drink it, but saving his sweetheart's life gives him "a reason" not to, which governs his decision, irrespective of his motivation. I am saying that, contrary to Rand, his thirst does not, under those circumstances, motivate him to drink the water, because he values his sweetheart's life more than satisfying his thirst. He is motivated instead to abstain from drinking it.
Secondly, you said "his values that determine his choice." You again use "determine" to mean cause, necessitate or a synonym. But "determine" is also a synonym for decide. A volitionist could describe the same situation with "he decides his choice based on his values" or something similar. You even say it that way a bit earlier. (That's why I call you a "closet volitionist." (-:) But many determinists would not.
But, you see, I don't think there's any real difference between "determine" and "decide" here. If he decides his choice based on his values, doesn't that say that his values determined his decision -- that given those values, he could not have chosen otherwise? If not, then why would you say that he decides his choice based on his values? If his decision is based on his values, then how, under those circumstances, could it have been based on something other than his values -- unless he was indifferent to the reasons for his choice?
P.S. Regarding Rand's sentence "A motivation is not a reason", do you think this is maybe where Peikoff came up with his 'there is no why'? He just ripped it out of context, as if reason and motivation are mutually exclusive and a motivation can't be a 'why'?
No, I don't think so. If you go back and read his statement, he appears to be saying that there can be no reason in either sense -- either as an intellectual rationale or as a motive or value judgment. He states, "There can be no intellectual factor which makes a man decide to become aware or which even partly explains such a decision: to grasp such a factor he must already be aware. For the same reason, there can be no motive or value judgment which precedes consciousness and which induces a man to become conscious. The decision to perceive reality must precede value judgments."

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 5/22, 10:25am)


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5


User ID Password or create a free account.