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Post 0

Friday, September 28, 2007 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Where do you get the idea the stars are evenly distributed? the known part of the universe is most assuredly NOT evenly distributed by all physics accounts I've read... 

Secondly, while agree the Big Bang never happened, neither do I accept this totality of expansion/contraction of the universe - for one, all we know is OUR part of the universe, which as noted, is NOT evenly distributed....  consequently, the other, unknown part, while adhering to the same universal 'laws', may be in a different 'stage' as it were of the universe existing than what is of 'known space'....  and, in that manner, as a sort of 'universal tsunami', self-corrects the presumed entropics...


Post 1

Friday, September 28, 2007 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Manfred:
   Interesting analysis about 'why' the universe should not be considered as infinite (especially in terms of contents), though I miss the relevence of a sphere's pi and diameter math relationship seen ontologically.
   You've made a good case about B-B assumptions conflicting with 'infinite' universe size: the original 'ylem' was not infinite, but ntl...?
   However, if no B-B, then the best perspective (though hard for me to understand completely) seems to be...

 http://www.geocities.com/rationalphysics/Unbounded_Finite.htm

LLAP
J:D


Post 2

Friday, September 28, 2007 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
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quote http://www.geocities.com/rationalphysics/Unbounded_Finite.htm "To say that something is finite is merely to say that it is, i.e., that it possesses a specific identity.  The universe is, therefore it is finite." 
The article poses a strong case that the Universe is not finite in time or in spatial extent because the universe is not "in time" and it is not "in space".

I challenge the assertion that the Universe possesses a specific identity. It is not defined as AN identity - a singular existence. And because it is unlimited, the Universe is UNdefined as a set. As soon as you try to define it, your perspective sways from the infinite reality back to a finite relativity.

If the Universe were finite then for at least one given point in the cosmos there must exist another point within a finite distance at which motion in any direction would not increase the distance between the two. If no such point exists, I would consider the Universe to be infinite...not just unbounded.

If the Universe 'Began' then unless it expanded for an infinite amount of time or at an infinite rate, it would necessarily be finite; however, if it DIDN'T begin........

(Edited by Jack (THoR) McNally on 9/28, 2:29pm)


Post 3

Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
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I challenge the assertion that the Universe possesses a specific identity. It is not defined as AN identity - a singular existence. And because it is unlimited, the Universe is UNdefined as a set. As soon as you try to define it, your perspective sways from the infinite reality back to a finite relativity.
The universe is not unlimited. Insofar as it exists, is possesses identity, and everything that exists is limited by its identity. It is what it is and not something else.
If the Universe were finite then for at least one given point in the cosmos there must exist another point within a finite distance at which motion in any direction would not increase the distance between the two.
Why? Even if motion does increase the distance between the two points, how does that prove that the universe isn't finite?

- Bill


Post 4

Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 6:05amSanction this postReply
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quote Bill "Why? Even if motion does increase the distance between the two points, how does that prove that the universe isn't finite?"
???? Then define finite for me.
Unlimited in spatial extent?

Let me rephrase:
If for at least one given point in the cosmos there does not exist another point within a finite distance at which motion in any direction would not increase the distance between the two, then the space which may be placed between them is unlimited.

Actually I suspect such is the case for ALL points, but one point is sufficient.

JMc


Post 5

Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 8:46amSanction this postReply
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Well, I like the article, but one thing has to be prefaced on it. Stars emit most of their energy as neutrinos than as photons (at least that is what the current astronomy textbooks I've flipped though at the university book store state).

-- Brede

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Post 6

Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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If for at least one given point in the cosmos there does not exist another point within a finite distance at which motion in any direction would not increase the distance between the two, then the space which may be placed between them is unlimited.

Actually I suspect such is the case for ALL points, but one point is sufficient.
What do you mean by a "point"? A location in space? Strictly speaking, points as such do not exist. What exists are three-dimensional objects. Two-dimensional lines and one-dimensional points are abstractions, not real objects. But if by a "point" you mean a location in space, then a location is simply a relationship between two or more objects, and would not exist without them. The universe is finite, because however many objects it comprises, it comprises that many and no more, and however large the objects are, they are that large and no larger, which means that both their number and size are finite. And if both the number and size of the objects composing the universe are finite, then the universe itself is finite.

- Bill

Post 7

Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
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quote Bill: What do you mean by a "point"? A location in space? Strictly speaking, points as such do not exist. What exists are three-dimensional objects. Two-dimensional lines and one-dimensional points are abstractions, not real objects. But if by a "point" you mean a location in space, then a location is simply a relationship between two or more objects, and would not exist without them. The universe is finite, because however many objects it comprises, it comprises that many and no more, and however large the objects are, they are that large and no larger, which means that both their number and size are finite. And if both the number and size of the objects composing the universe are finite, then the universe itself is finite.
Thank you for the elucidation. I now completely understand how you envision the Universe as finite but unbounded. This is a MUCH better illustration than the soccer ball. Your conclusion is wrong, but at least now I can work on a rational counter argument taking your perspective into consideration.

I presume you count space as 'existing'. It has a physical presence in the universe. And even inertness is a quality.I commend you for this insight.

You seem; however, to be limiting the number of elements the Universe can hold without showing any reason why such a limit should be presumed to exist. Are you citing WECIB?


Post 8

Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - 2:50amSanction this postReply
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General Notice: In relation with my writing "Ayn Rand, I and the Universe" I notice that there are several opponents to the deductions traced from reality who, under the disguise of the most abstruse "arguments" convey the impression of wanting to slide the word "god" under another name through these wiles, without daring to do so in the open as this would reveal their true purpose. Naturally in an honest intellectual field, every idea can be questioned and opposed, but then in a logical, sincere, understandable manner, using arguments based on documentary evidence and pure reason.

It is well known that Internet forums are often used to merely create antagonism lacking every intention to contribute anything valuable to enhance the quality of the discussion. More often than not the hostility is cloaked by rarefied theories brought out from truly fallacious constructions whose only purpose is to question the argument presented on the main writing without providing any proof of validity for their preposterous assumptions. Often merely paying better attention to what the author of the main writing presented would solve alleged inconsistencies by themselves.

As general example I point out that the assertion presented by one of the readers that "the known part of the universe is most assuredly NOT evenly distributed" has clearly and evidently been taken care of when I later on state that "we can always find stars or starlike objects in any area of the universe, which we might observe with a telescope. Whatever telescope we take, even the strongest – whose development was, at the time of Olbers, still far in the future – it will show stars or starlike objects (such as accumulations of stars, also called galaxies, and so forth) in the sky." Besides, Olbers' paradox explanation can be found (according to Google's search engine) some 84,300 times in the Internet and, since that reader somewhere else mentioned that he read many of Isaac Asimov's books, he will surely find it in any of Asimov's many books, for example his "Asimov's Biographical Encyclopedia of Science and Technology". I expected a higher status than this kind of sniveling.

Then there are disputers that come up with "arguments" that can hardly be called such and should be more properly termed as esoterics coming straight out of Old-Egyptian flatlined world ("another point within a finite distance at which motion in any direction would not increase the distance between the two"). This does not just refer to "at least one given point in the cosmos", as the claimant seems to wring his brains to find out why this is so, but anywhere (also in a three-dimensional universe where we happen to be) since travelling on a fixed distance will only change the distance of the travelling object to any of the end points of the line but not the distance existing between the two points themselves.

A further "brain teaser" seems to be not seeing the "relevance of a sphere's pi and diameter math relationship seen ontologically" I also explained this when speaking of curves. "Pi", a numerically infinite relation of the diameter to the edge of anything curvy (I cannot help but think of female breasts and hips if my critic doesn't mind the joke), is a firm part of any curve, ontologically or, most certainly, logically.

"Stars emit most of their energy as neutrinos than as photons". They do? Well, then, if our sun emits so many neutrinos, why do we have to inter our detection instruments kilometers and kilometers below the surface of the planet just to be able to detect ONE of them? Besides, changing the name of the energy emitted doesn't change the emission of energy in whatever form energy might be…

It has since long been proved that Internet forums are the perfect place for grumpy people to air their general ill-temper. The theme I took up in my writing is very serious matter, for it pertains - as will clearly come up in the following installments, for which the foregoing chapters provided the basis - to the very survival of mankind as a RATIONAL species.

I suggest that those adverse to what I present in my book should stop pecking around and take the time to elaborate themselves a writing devoid of contradictions where their deductions from REALITY (no fantasies or obsolete superstitions, please) are presented in an understandable and readable way (Asimov stated in one of his articles that if something is so awkwardly difficult that it can't even be explained, it shouldn't even be taken up). I look forward with interest and an active mind to have the opportunity to read such writings.

This ends the issue.
 
P.S.: By the way and should anybody be interested: I designed the legend on the T-shirt I'm wearing myself and ordered it from a T-shirt manufacturer. It reads in bold letters "Enjoy Ayn Rand's Objectivism!"

(Edited by Manfred F. Schieder on 10/02, 2:57am)


Post 9

Friday, July 6, 2012 - 11:52pmSanction this postReply
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On my original writing of „The Structure of the Universe“ in my book „Ayn Rand, I and the Universe“ I found a typing mistake as I updated my book. Thus, please replace the sentence:

   “If we divide both expressions (4 times as many stars as layer 1 by only ¼ of the brightness of layer 1) we see that layer 2 sends as much light as layer 1 (We may call this "1 total unit of light" in both cases, as it is not necessary here to pay attention to the total amount of lumens involved; it will always be the same relation).”

by:

   “If we multiply both expressions (4 times as many stars as layer 1 by only ¼ of the brightness of layer 1) we see that layer 2 sends as much light as layer 1 (We may call this "1 total unit of light" in both cases, as it is not necessary here to pay attention to the total amount of lumens involved; it will always be the same relation).”

For a free e-mailed copy of the updated version of my book, please send a requesting message to my related e-mail address: kennensieaynrand@gmx.a






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