RoR: Forum

Well said.

Post 1

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 8:54am

He learned that his wealthier friends who did go fell into the wrong crowd of people at school. Every single one of them had ended bankrupt, jailed, or dead.

This literally made me laugh out loud. Is this a remotely realistic outcome in our current society? There are very few "bad crowds" at colleges. No offense, but I don't know what planet you are residing on that makes you think that colleges are just the modern-day equivalent of 19th-century opiate-and-whore dens.

Post 2

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 10:12am

That's the beauty of writing your own story, Steven. You get to say whatever you like, real or not. Haven't you seen the new movie Bedtime Stories?

Let's see if I can name some people I know in those circumstances at some point after we parted company:

J.V. Huffman, Jr., Bunker Hill High School, Class of 1982: Jailed for securities fraud and facing bankruptcy due to receivorship.
Bryan Giles, North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics, Class of 1983: Killed in a car accident.
Pandora Lytle, North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics, Class of 1984: Killed in a car accident.
Neal Henderson, North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics, Class of 1985: Jailed as an accessory to murder.

While these people were acquaintances and not friends, and were scattered across two high schools across multiple years, they still constitute enough concentration of people to give my scenario plausibility. One car accident would be enough to wipe several at once, while one act of law violation would be enough to get several others bankrupted and jailed at once. Consider this story:

Defendants get 15-year prison sentences for stop-sign killings

Imagine your children, still green and unfamiliar with the full implications of "practical jokes," getting charmed by one "bad apple" into similar foolishness and paying a similar price.

Yes, I think the "wrong crowd" spells bad news and makes a decent case for close parental supervision.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/17, 10:19am)

Post 3

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 10:35am

Luke -

First of all, what you seemed to imply (well, you pretty much outright said it) was that the natural consequences of having your college financed by your parents goes like this:

Never learn responsibility -> Fall into the wrong crowd at college, and AS A RESULT -> Dead, in jail or bankrupt.

Second of all, a few minutes googling seemed to reveal that your acquaintance Ms. Lytle was killed as a passenger in a car crash. I suppose you could say "well, she was in the wrong crowd and that's why she wound up in a car with a bad driver", but I do not see anything remotely convincing about that line of reasoning nor do I see how the natural consequences of doing things that are considered deviant for a few years naturally leads to death and ruin.

I grant that it's your story and you can tell it how you wish, but it really was funny. It almost sounded like you were *wishing* this is how things would turn out for people you consider to be in the "wrong crowd". You're almost downright Christian in this regard. It was funny in that cartoony 50s-style PSAs or movies they showed kids: "Little Johnny fell in with the wrong crowd and now his head is SPLATTERED ACROSS THE HIGHWAY!"

Post 4

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 10:56am

No, no, no, god damn it! I wasn't "wishing" anything bad on anyone. It was a "happy coincidence" that things turned out as they did for John Willers even as his friends met bad fates on that other path. It's like getting mad at someone for stopping you from getting on a plane only to watch the plane crash on takeoff and heaving a sigh of relief that you weren't on it!

I wrote that just to create a more dramatic contrast in the story.

Speaking of bad apples, the Billionaire Boys Club is another famous story of one.

All I am suggesting is that people who get all huffy and expect others to pay their bills for risky ventures had better get their facts straight and think of all the consequences, especially financial ones, hence the key phrase:

Show me your cash flow statement.

I will say this much: Having attended a four year university, I consider much of it a waste of money when contrasted against a community college. Many of the freshmen and sophomores at university had no business being there. Everyone would have benefited if these ill-prepared, immature people had gone their first two years to community college and matured intellectually and emotionally while saving tens of thousands of dollars.

The indoctrination from the public safety officers and law enforcement during freshman orientation regarding drunk driving suggested it was an ongoing problem.

So, yes, I still think that bad things can happen to good people who make poor choices.

I have a cousin who has not spoken to his son for many years after my cousin co-signed a student loan for a large sum of money to send his son to an expensive private university only to have his son quit and leave my cousin with the outstanding loan.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/17, 10:58am)

Post 5

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 12:23pm

Hell, Luke, my mom has you beat with just THREE words: "Get a job."
(Preceded with "You want it so bad?". ;)

Post 6

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 1:25pm

Like I said, I get the message of responsibility and ensuring that your ducks are in a row prior to taking on a larger debt load for things that can be considered frivolous, but...

Well, let's just put it like this: I have lent my brother money; he has lent me money; my parents have lent us both money and we have lent them money.

I never sat down with my father and asked him what his cash flow situation was. My father is good for it, and he knows that about me as well. Regardless of whether any party precisely pays the entirety of the loan with certain interest and blah blah...that's not really the point. Having a support system that is willing to take a little more risk with you than something faceless is not a bad thing. The spirit in which this informal system operates would consider it crass and rude to demand a "cash flow statement". In short, you'll look like an asshole.

Post 7

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 4:01pm

As with a "faceless" institution, one will need to build a "credit rating" and have an effective "enforcement system" in place for that familial network not to become abusive.

I would rather be an "asshole" in the black than a "sap" in the red.

I seem to recall the late millionaire Charles Givens saying or writing somewhere that when dealing with loved ones, just give them the money instead of "loaning" it to them and then having that unpaid debt be a permanent sore spot.

My wife and I helped a friend recently and told her to "pay it forward" when she got back on her feet.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/17, 4:16pm)

Post 8

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 4:51pm

As with a "faceless" institution, one will need to build a "credit rating" and have an effective "enforcement system" in place for that familial network not to become abusive.

You're assuming a cold, rational approach to this, which is fine, but the system does not become abusive because family is involved. This may sound terribly "emotional" or "whimsical" to you, but I am constrained almost by a pre-existing morality that says "Don't Screw Over Clan Druckenmiller."

Post 9

Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 5:43pm

Consider yourself fortunate, Steven, because not every family has that moral compass.

Post 10

Friday, July 1, 2011 - 7:50am

I find myself coming back to this article, time and time again; it's helped me keep focus of the long haul. One of the best in the archive, here.

Post 11

Monday, September 5, 2011 - 2:56pm