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Friday, August 14, 2009 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Obviously "U. C. Constitution" should be "U. S. Constitution." (Just a tad editing might have helped to catch this typo.)

Post 1

Friday, August 14, 2009 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
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Busy, sorry I missed it. 


Post 2

Friday, August 14, 2009 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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Hey, I like it -- "U.C. Constitution." UC (University of California) ought to have one. Then maybe some of the crap they teach there would be ruled unconstitutional! ;-)

- Bill

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Post 3

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 1:41amSanction this postReply
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The Obama administration isn't responsible imposing these policies on us any more than the merchant who sells someone tobacco is responsible for giving him lung cancer. They peddle their poison, but it's the public that buys it.

Government is an enterprise of sorts and politicians are merely political entrepreneurs. The nature of a government, especially in a democracy, is a reflection of market demand.

It's not really true that "we get the government we deserve", because not every individual wants the government that he gets. What is true is that we get the government that the market demands.


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Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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But, can I get a refund?

jt

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Post 5

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
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Mark,

There is a problem with your "market" concept. There is no choice for he individual. A vote is the statement of a preference, and it is a choice, but it isn't a "purchase" like one makes in a market. I didn't choose Obama, yet here I am stuck with him.

You said, "The Obama administration isn't responsible imposing these policies on us any more than the merchant who sells someone tobacco is responsible for giving him lung cancer." I have to take exception to that. Anyone that violates the rights of another, as the Obama administration is doing, IS responsible. To say otherwise is excuse any degree of tyranny as long as it was voted in democratically. There is always at least one person who does not go along with a lynch mob, even if it is the guy with a rope around his neck.

Post 6

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 4:13pmSanction this postReply
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Flash news!!!

Steve comes out for anarcho-capitalism!!!

Or did I get that wrong?

Post 7

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, Phil. You got that wrong!

Post 8

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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Hello Steve. I hope this will be the first of many mutually beneficial exchanges.
There is a problem with your "market" concept. There is no choice for he individual. A vote is the statement of a preference, and it is a choice, but it isn't a "purchase" like one makes in a market. I didn't choose Obama, yet here I am stuck with him.

That's why I couched my statement in these terms: "It's not really true that "we get the government we deserve", because not every individual wants the government that he gets. What is true is that we get the government that the market demands."

I never said it was a free market. There will only be a free market if there is, first, a sufficient market demand for a free market of competing civil governmental agencies, where an individual or organization could freely contract for the services offered by free market courts, police and military defensive agencies.

The state is a form of civil government that initiates the use of force and coercion against its subjects. It uses its power to exclude and/or limit competing governments - from self government to businesses and non-profits to other civil governments - from free participation in the marketplace.

As long as there's an overwhelming market demand for the state, then democracy - The institution that implements the form of civil government/s demanded by the market. - will be tyrannical.

The great virtue of democracy is that offers an avenue for change in the form of government/s without the necessity for civil war, but there's no guarantee that this change will be in the direction of greater liberty.

Yet still: democracy's the only institution, that I can think of, that can can be used for the implementation of liberty through gradual privatization of the agencies of the state, allowing them to sink or swim according their own merits in the sea of free market competition.

You said, "The Obama administration isn't responsible imposing these policies on us any more than the merchant who sells someone tobacco is responsible for giving him lung cancer." I have to take exception to that. Anyone that violates the rights of another, as the Obama administration is doing, IS responsible. To say otherwise is excuse any degree of tyranny as long as it was voted in democratically. There is always at least one person who does not go along with a lynch mob, even if it is the guy with a rope around his neck.
Of course, you are right about their moral culpability, but I never said otherwise.

You are confusing my use of the word "responsible" as "the cause of something" with its other definition: "Liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent."- not that they're the primary cause of these policies either. You should give me more credit than assume I don't hold them morally accountable, but, as I've shown, even if I had meant the second definition, my statement would still be true. 

If I had used the word "responsibility", then you would have had a somewhat better reason to object, but I can understand your confusion, as these words might mistakenly seem similar in meaning.

(Edited by Mark Ian Uzick on 8/16, 9:07pm)


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Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 8:15pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

You said, "There will only be a free market if there is, first, a sufficient market demand for a free market of competing civil governmental agencies, were an individual or organization could freely contract for the services offered by free market courts, police and military defensive agencies."

I take it that you are advocating a form of anarchy.

Post 10

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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Flash news!!!

Steve comes out for anarcho-capitalism!!!

Or did I get that wrong?
The only implication that I saw in Steve's post was that he wanted government by the consent of the governed.

That would be the voluntary model of civil government.

The problem with "market anarchy" is that it's a contradiction in terms; there can be no market without governance. The proposed governing institutions of this "anarchy" - anarchy meaning: "The absence or failure of government" - are referred to with euphemisms, like DROs and protection agencies to evade the fact that they're governing agencies, which becomes apparent when you refer to them by their common names: courts and police.

Both you and Steve, if I'm correct to assume he's a minarchist, buy into the same fallacy, which I call the statist premise. It conflates government with the state. The state is only a particular form of a particular form of government.

There's self government, business organizations, non-profit organisations, and civil government. The state is only a particular kind of civil government.

By conflating government with the state, we create a dilemma. As every reasonable person understands that without government, civilized order is impossible, the statist premise creates a false choice of acceptance of the state and its violation of the NAP as a necessary evil that can be contained like a monster in a cage or the rejection of government altogether - anarchism.

The reality is that the state, as it limits or destroys the legitimate government of a civilized society, substituting government by the consent of the individuals that are governed with fiat law, creates chaos, destruction of businesses and people's dreams, violence, terrorism and war, culminating in its own failure and collapse, is the essence of anarchy.

So - Which of you is really the anarchist in this debate?


Post 11

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 9:14pmSanction this postReply
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I take it that you are advocating a form of anarchy.

It looks like I indirectly answered you, via Phil, before I got to your message.

I saw the typo - were/where - and it's corrected now.

(Edited by Mark Ian Uzick on 8/16, 9:16pm)


Post 12

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 9:15pmSanction this postReply
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I hear there is a brisk trade in competing gov'ts in sub-saharan africa. I thought this dead horse had been beaten to death. Competing gov'ts inevitably deteriorate into anarchy, independent states, or a single state. Two of those options you are advocating a competing gov'ts approach to fix and the other is completely immoral and insane, not to mention short lived.

A BO does not impose bad policies on us. The country's faulty philosophy, bad cognition, and (sadly) increasingly deranged culture impose a BO on itself. Politicians are a means to an end that society chooses for itself. The BO administration is responsible for being a gaggle of madmen, the country is responsible for electing them, and each of us is responsible to the extent that we personally support such foolishness. (in the sense of culpability).

A pure democracy, in itself, does nothing to promote what you are saying. A pure democracy without some limiting principle is shockingly effective at destroying liberty, not promoting it. A constitutional republic built on sound principle is much more effective for liberty. You write in liberty at the beginning and keep the gov't in its place thereafter.

Post 13

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 10:29pmSanction this postReply
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I hear there is a brisk trade in competing govts in sub-saharan africa. I thought this dead horse had been beaten to death. Competing govts inevitably deteriorate into anarchy, independent states, or a single state. Two of those options you are advocating a competing govts approach to fix and the other is completely immoral and insane, not to mention short lived.
Governmental agencies competing for business in a free market that evolved into being though an overwhelming market demand for liberty bears little resemblance to and no responsibility for the, never ending, competition - war - between states and statist organizations.

You're conflating legitimate government with the state. Yes; states are ubiquitous and so we live in a world of anarchy, chaos and war.

What two options are speaking of? That sentence is unintelligible to me. Could you please restate it?

 A BO does not impose bad policies on us. The country's faulty philosophy, bad cognition, and (sadly) increasingly deranged culture impose a BO on itself. Politicians are a means to an end that society chooses for itself. The BO administration is responsible for being a gaggle of madmen, the country is responsible for electing them, and each of us is responsible to the extent that we personally support such foolishness. (in the sense of culpability).
Agreed. That's the premise of my first post in this thread.


 A pure democracy, in itself, does nothing to promote what you are saying. A pure democracy without some limiting principle is shockingly effective at destroying liberty, not promoting it. A constitutional republic built on sound principle is much more effective for liberty. You write in liberty at the beginning and keep the gov't in its place thereafter.

Where did I say anything about a "pure democracy"? It doesn't exist among civil governments anywhere and there's no good reason to advocate it.

Constitutional limits on the state, while a good thing, cannot, in the end, overcome the market demand for increased state power. There is no magical system that will give or maintain liberty in a society that doesn't value it.

The way you change market demand is through education and marketing. Of course, once free market government becomes established, there will be plenty of advertising and other forms of education disseminated by competing civil governmental agencies to promote their desirability to potential customers.


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Post 14

Sunday, August 16, 2009 - 11:33pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

The flaw in your argument has been addressed on this web site many times. It goes like this:

You argue that there can be competing governments. But competition of a desirable sort (not ugly gang warfare) requires a free market. That kind of market does not grow on trees. You cannot have a free market without there first being laws based upon individual rights - hence, an ongoing defense of freedom. Those laws create the necessary environment needed for a market reasonably free of initiated force, fraud and theft.

There must be one single set of laws for a given geographical area. You also can not have competing sets of laws.



Post 15

Monday, August 17, 2009 - 3:56amSanction this postReply
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Competing civil governments already exist in various countries, to the extent that they are tolerated by the state and they haven't resulted in the anarchy of gang warfare that you fear.

I don't see private arbitrators and private police involved in any mayhem. Can you say the same for the state?

Of course the free market doesn't grow on trees and that's just my point: Relying on a system to keep the state in check will always fail. The hard work of protecting and maintaining liberty must depend on educating people about the importance of  liberty. It cannot be entrusted to a government that initiates the use of force.

The way to get from here to free market government requires a stage of minarchy, as all the agencies of the state that don't fit what the minarchists view as legitimate are privatized or closed, so your free market requirement will have already been mostly met at this point. 

Once the remaining agencies of the state permit competition - It isn't necessary, nor desirable, especially at this point, that they close down. - the state will have officially ceased to exist, replaced by voluntary civil government.

Different sets of laws wouldn't be a problem for competing court systems since both parties to a dispute would have to agree to use a particular court or allow an independent third party or their police agency, if they used the same one, to decide on a court for them.

Civil governments as competing businesses would seek to attract business through a reputation for efficiency, honesty, fairness and just decisions.

If an agency tried to act disreputably, engaging in gang-like tactics, fraud, blackmail, violence and creating laws by fiat to favor a special group, they would lose their clients to competitors and be treated by reputable police agencies as the criminals that they are and possibly subject to military action, if they are deemed to be an incipient state, by military agencies subscribed to by the smaller police agencies.

Analogous arguments amounting to " How can we trust the free market with this vital service ?" or "...this vital industry?" are made by statists concerning everything from food production and distribution, education, housing, health and medicine, organ donation, water,... etc.; the list is endless. It all amounts to a failure of faith in the free market and humanity's potential.


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Post 16

Monday, August 17, 2009 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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"It all amounts to a failure of faith in the free market and humanity's potential." Well, yeah. Your position is based on faith and, more importantly, a stolen concept. A free market exists when some highest political authority enforces laws against theft and fraud. Sure, there can be lower jurisdictions and even private arbiters so long as they are subject to some highest recognized authority.

If there is no recognized highest authority, then what you have on your hands is called civil war.

To say breezily that "if an agency tried to act disreputably, engaging in gang-like tactics, fraud, blackmail, violence and creating laws by fiat to favor a special group, they would lose their clients to competitors" is simply to act as if civil war is the same as free market competition between McDonalds and Burger King. You are ignoring the essential difference, you are equating competition in force with competition in productive trade. In a free market, business rivals don't murder their competitors. That's what the word free means, acting without the initiation of force. If you happen to think that civil war is not all that bad, why not just say so? Why the need to call it anarcho-capitalism?

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Monday, August 17, 2009 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

Ted covered most of what I would have said in reply, but I'll make a few points anyway.

You said, "Relying on a system to keep the state in check will always fail." That is a bald assertion - and an act of faith to rely on it.

"free market government" has to remain a contradiction in terms unless you want to redefine "free" to mean something else.

You said, "Different sets of laws wouldn't be a problem for competing court systems since both parties to a dispute would have to agree to use a particular court or allow an independent third party or their police agency, if they used the same one, to decide on a court for them." Who sez they have to agree? We go the law, to the police, to courts, to arbitration when we do NOT agree. It would not only be A problem, it would be THE problem why your system would never work. Anyone could resort to violence, or ignore a reasonable dispute, or not agree to the resolutions or decrees of a court/arbitrator/etc.

You said, "...competing businesses would seek to attract business through a reputation for efficiency, honesty, fairness and just decisions." Yes, some would. And some would appeal to people who would be willing to get ahead by bullying others, or slipping around the 'rules'. And even two honest people, signed up with two honest, efficient, fair agencies can still disagree and have no common set of laws - single set of laws - that will resolve the situation - leaving them only force as a last resort.

You said, "If an agency tried to act disreputably, engaging in gang-like tactics, fraud, blackmail, violence and creating laws by fiat to favor a special group, they would lose their clients to competitors and be treated by reputable police agencies as the criminals that they are and possibly subject to military action, if they are deemed to be an incipient state, by military agencies subscribed to by the smaller police agencies." That can be viewed in two ways: pure fantasy, or as a description of an inevitable acceleration of disagreements into civil war.


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Post 18

Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 4:57amSanction this postReply
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"It all amounts to a failure of faith in the free market and humanity's potential." Well, yeah. Your position is based on faith and, more importantly, a stolen concept.
Is faith an unconditionally bad thing? All it means, when used by someone with respect for reason, is confidence or trust. Are you implying that you don't have faith in the free market and humanity's potential?

As the fundamental condition necessary for a free market to exist is that it's participants deal with one another in good faith, without resorting to the initiation of force or coercion, it should be obvious that it is those who place their faith in the state, whose "position is based on faith and, more importantly, a stolen concept".

A free market exists when some highest political authority enforces laws against theft and fraud. Sure, there can be lower jurisdictions and even private arbiters so long as they are subject to some highest recognized authority.
In the same way that we don't need the state to be the highest authority on how we feed ourselves, clothe ourselves, shelter ourselves, medicate ourselves or educate ourselves, we don't need it to decree to us how to get along with each other and protect ourselves from criminals. The state does none of these things well - especially protection from criminals. As the state is criminal in its nature and given its track record, it's hardly worthy of any kind of authority.

As a criminal must first reform before he can earn our trust, so the state must first reform by eschewing its monopoly on the use of force by means of initiated force and coercion, becoming a voluntary governmental agency/s, before it have any claim to legitimate authority.

If there is no recognized highest authority, then what you have on your hands is called civil war.
Civil war is a characteristic of the state, not a legitimate business or organization. "War is the health of the state."; even if there's no civil war or foreign war for the state to satiate its lust for power, it declares war upon its subjects, e.g., the war on drugs.

Businesses compete by improving their products and services and by lowering costs and prices, not by engaging in aggressive acts against customers and competitors. The only war they might engage in is a price war. When businesses act against their competitors with criminal threats and treat their customers in a high handed manner, it's only because they have been granted monopoly privileges by the state. In any governmental system founded upon aggression, survival of the fittest usually results in the evolution of the individuals and organizations within this society into corrupt special interests parasitically exploiting one another. That's why civil government should be structured as a legitimate business, not gang of thugs.

Why the need to call it anarcho-capitalism?
I'm not any kind of anarchist. It's the statists who are. Haven't you read this paragraph in post #10?

"The reality is that the state, as it limits or destroys the legitimate government of a civilized society, substituting government by the consent of the individuals that are governed with fiat law, creates chaos, destruction of businesses and people's dreams, violence, terrorism and war, culminating in its own failure and collapse, is the essence of anarchy."


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Post 19

Tuesday, August 18, 2009 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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You said, "Relying on a system to keep the state in check will always fail." That is a bald assertion - and an act of faith to rely on it.
So you believe that a legal system can be created to guarantee liberty for a society that, for the most part, does not value liberty?

Sorry, it's not any system, but the general attitude of the populous, that determines the character of its government.
"free market government" has to remain a contradiction in terms unless you want to redefine "free" to mean something else.
Actually, any individual, business or organization acting in good faith, i.e., acting without aggression, is an example of free market government. There's no reason an agency of civil governance cannot also be a free market government.

The free market can be looked upon as a vector component of the total market; it exists everywhere that some human actions and interactions are of a voluntary nature; even in jail or in North Korea.

You said, "Different sets of laws wouldn't be a problem for competing court systems since both parties to a dispute would have to agree to use a particular court or allow an independent third party or their police agency, if they used the same one, to decide on a court for them." Who sez they have to agree? We go the law, to the police, to courts, to arbitration when we do NOT agree. It would not only be A problem, it would be THE problem why your system would never work. Anyone could resort to violence, or ignore a reasonable dispute, or not agree to the resolutions or decrees of a court/arbitrator/etc.

Under the jurisdiction of the state, all these problems you describe exist in abundance. Unlike a free market based civil government the state has no incentive to protect or enforce people's rights; in fact using its very failure as an excuse to raise taxes and expand its power. The state claims that the police have no duty to protect you; their only obligation is to enforce the law and that you can't sue them for refusal or failure to do their ostensible job. Their obligation is not to the tax slaves, but only to the state. If "war is the health of the state", then so is failure. The criminals thrive, while innocent people are punished and jailed for breaking statutory laws that have no victims.

Predicting how the market will solve problems is impossible but here's how some things might work under the voluntary model of civil government:

1.You have a dispute with someone or some organization.
2.You present your case to them and try to come to some mutually acceptable settlement.
3. If you can't come to an agreement to settle:
   a. You can make an agreement to settle the dispute in a particular court.
   b. Failing that, you can sue them in your court.
   c. If they become threatening or violent, you call your police agency to protect you and then you sue them in your court.
4. If they use a different court, they can:
   a. Come to your court anyway, because it has a good reputation.
   b. They can ask you to come to their court.
   c. If you can't agree on whose court to use, then your court and their court can bring in a third, neutral court that they find mutually acceptable.

If they refuse to come to any court, choosing instead to take the law and their self defense into their own hands, - while they might have the right to do this, they would find that there are great disadvantages to rejecting civilized order - your court would find in your favor, by default and you could have your police agency enforce your court order.
  
Unlike the state, the court and police agencies, being businesses, would have every incentive to cooperate with each other, while treating their clients as pleasantly and respectfully as possible.

Unlike the state, they would be mindful of the rights of their client's opponents, even the rights of the fools that take the law into their own hands, because they would be liable for any unjustified harm that they might inadvertently inflict. Careless disregard for anyone's rights could result in unacceptable liabilities.

You said, "...competing businesses would seek to attract business through a reputation for efficiency, honesty, fairness and just decisions." Yes, some would. And some would appeal to people who would be willing to get ahead by bullying others, or slipping around the 'rules'. And even two honest people, signed up with two honest, efficient, fair agencies can still disagree and have no common set of laws - single set of laws - that will resolve the situation - leaving them only force as a last resort.

You said, "If an agency tried to act disreputably, engaging in gang-like tactics, fraud, blackmail, violence and creating laws by fiat to favor a special group, they would lose their clients to competitors and be treated by reputable police agencies as the criminals that they are and possibly subject to military action, if they are deemed to be an incipient state, by military agencies subscribed to by the smaller police agencies." That can be viewed in two ways: pure fantasy, or as a description of an inevitable acceleration of disagreements into civil war.
I addressed some of this already so I'll just skip to the issue of rogue agencies: 

If there was enough demand for rogue agencies to bring about civil war and the rise of the state, then that would, no doubt, be a reflection of the general moral decline of society. As I said before, "What is true is that we get the government that the market demands."

What could bring about such a situation? It's hard to say.

If there will ever be a self sustaining political system, a stateless society of voluntary civil government would come the closest, as all the incentives would be in favor of an evolution of the individuals and organizations toward a respect for the rights and liberties of others.

If something unforeseen does bring this about, then we can only hope that future generations will learn how to guard against its repetition.


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