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Post 40

Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Post 36 was right on the money.

Ed


Post 41

Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 11:15amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

Steve may have his own answers, but I got intrigued to answer, too.

But, let's stipulate that the state has no obligation to make this information publicly available, willy nilly.
The 1966 Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) obligates the state to make government information publicly available, so if you stipulate that the state has no such obligation, then -- in my mind -- it behooves you to explain why it would be good to start an analogy by first backtracking on the moral issue of citizen access to government information. Analogies can become very weak that way. An example would be to start an analogy with the phrase: "But if reality wasn't like it is, then ..."

It's difficult to prove any kind of a point from that kind of a beginning. Perhaps I haven't informed you of anything (because you already knew all of this) yet, and you still have something up your sleeve ...

The question is, if some did, would a state supportive of freedom under free association 'allow' it, or would such a state enforce forced association and prohibit it?
Seems like such an easy question. Of course "a state supportive of freedom under free association" would 'allow' such different kinds of personal experiments regarding association -- that is basically 'true-by-definition' or 'tautological.' Only if the phrase: "supportive of freedom under free association" didn't have the meaning it does, could such a state not 'allow' such a thing.

Question: would a state supportive of freedom prohibit such means of selectivity/discrimination?
Answered above. It could not do so without contradiction.

We have no idea what kind of public or private economies would result under a model that permitted that form of selectivity ...
I disagree. This is too close to the statement that we have no idea what kind of economies would result under laissez-faire capitalism (because it has never been tried), or that we have no idea what kind of economies would result under pure and total, Marxist communism (because, according to Marxist purists, that has never been tried, either).

Ed


Post 42

Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

You asked, "would a state supportive of freedom prohibit such means of selectivity/discrimination?"

No. There are no rights violations in the scenario you laid out.
----------------------------

You wrote, "What is all this about? I'm wondering about a hypothetical model under which a free state could collect taxes under a non-coercive model that required force. (In the model above, force is required to prohibit the discipline of discrimination in forming free associations, not to collect taxes.)"

They wouldn't be taxes, since they are voluntary contributions to selected government functions.

I don't understand what the last part means? What is this "force... required to prohibit the discipline of discrimination in forming free associations..."?

Post 43

Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 12:37pmSanction this postReply
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Actually Marx declines to say what will happen in a communist society because the population will be made up of new men, not the type we are familiar with. So what these new people will decide is quite unfamiliar to us. Oh, also, why the use of the term "state" instead of "government" or "country"? State is very theory laden; it means different things for Plato, Hegel, Marx, Spencer, Rothbard, et al.
(Edited by Machan on 6/12, 12:39pm)


Post 44

Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 1:32pmSanction this postReply
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Actually Marx declines to say what will happen in a communist society because the population will be made up of new men, not the type we are familiar with.

Okay, but this is internally contradictory, so -- by making Marxist communism completely arbitrary (all contradictions are completely arbitrary) -- it removes the very possibility of using Marxist communism as an example of anything in any argument (including the one I tried above).

The internal contradiction is that Marx thought communism would be good for folks but, in order to know if something is good for someone or some being, you have got to know about the nature of the being you are claiming that something is good for. So, if Marx claims that new and unknown types of men will be around, he cannot also claim what would be good for them.**

Imagine the opposite. Imagine not knowing anything about the nature of a being, and then proclaiming that you know what is good or best for them. For instance, you might say that tree-climbing is good for fish -- totally oblivious to the fact that it would kill them. Or you might say that nuclear explosions would be great for forests. Whatever it is, you cannot say what is good before you know about the nature of the being you are talking about.

Oh, also, why the use of the term "state" instead of "government" or "country"? State is very theory laden; it means different things for Plato, Hegel, Marx, Spencer, Rothbard, et al.

Good point.

  
Ed

**The only alternative arugment for Marxists at this point would be to claim that the communist future is a good goal for man as he is now -- so that man as he is now should work toward this communist future. In this case, to hell with the new type of man. If communism is not good for him, then who cares? Communism is good for man as he is now, and that is all that matters. But then the claim is rationally unsupportable. It involves justifying how it is that something can be good for someone who will not even exist when the good is attained!

Rationally unsupportable.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/12, 1:46pm)


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Post 45

Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 3:17pmSanction this postReply
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The U.S.A. is getting nearer. Link   SEIU = Service Employees International Union

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Post 46

Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 3:39pmSanction this postReply
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The column Merlin linked to is a scary one.

From the column: "The SEIU devoted $28 million to Obama’s campaign, making the SEIU 'the organization that spent the most to help Barack Obama get elected president.'

Furthermore, who is Obama’s favorite White House guest and one of his closest confidants? The individual who has visited the Obama White House the most: SEIU President, Andy Stern, who has visited 53 times.

Obama is closely linked with the SEIU. The SEIU is closely linked with Communists. You do the math."



Here is a nice image from the article. SEIU marches in solidarity with the Communist Party

Post 47

Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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Of course I didn't claim Marx's version of communism is coherent, reasonable, sensible, or the like. I have argued just the opposite. As they say these days, it is what it is. (See my book Revisiting Marxism: A Bourgeois Reassessment [Hamilton Books, 2006].)

Post 48

Monday, June 13, 2011 - 11:58amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

I don't understand what the last part means? What is this "force... required to prohibit the discipline of discrimination in forming free associations..."?

In my hypothetical -- a government funded by voluntary contributions, and by self-directed distribution of those contributions, in order to prohibit the voluntary/free association wishes of that subset that wished to construct their socius(commerce, fraternity, whatever)based on freely established principles of association, force would be required to prohibit it. (I clearly don't agree with that use of force for that purpose.)

But in that hypothetical nation, with a government funded in that fashion for limited public purpose, there would be(at least, but much more)two broad classes of people:

A] People who did not require access to such public profile information, who did not support disclosure of it, and who would freely not include in their socius those who did require it.

B] People who did, and who formed their socius based on the principle of informed free association.

Group B] would be free to associate with/support/conduct commerce with those members of Group A as they see fit. If none of them, then none of them. With no basis to bitch, either at what Group A decides to fund with its tax dollars, or chooses not to fund with its tax dollars, or even, blindly supports with its tax dollars. (I'm using 'tax' as a shorthand. "Voluntary Contributions to the state" is too long.)

And, vice versa. No force, and yet, an enforcement mechanism to collect funding for common government without force, a condition of free association that applies a discipline, both to freeloaders and to the advocates of public causes that are not widely shared.

Along with, an abdication of the ethical right to bitch about the voluntary choices of others; given that remedy exists in such a hypothetical state-- the right to discriminate based on disclosure of public profile -- there is no need or right or obligation to gripe about the free choices of others, freely made. If it is too much of a hair shirt to bear what the state does in our name, then ... withdraw your inclusion socius from that part of the state that supports that action or inaction.

If the cost of withdrawing that inclusion exceeds the pain of the hairshirt, then choose the greater value, like always.

There is no obligation to provide pain-free choices for everyone, nor is that even remotely possible.

Example: state funding of abortion. There are a set of choices that can be made, ranging from a] decide to support or not support it directly with your tax dollars, b] decide to include in your socius (commerce, fraternity, whatever) those who agree with your position on that issue.

Or, only a], and freely choose not to discriminate your socius based on that issue.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Discriminate on any such public profile issue you wish, or not.

Discipline for freeloaders and over-activists alike, to the degree that individuals find it personally necessary or desirable to exert, without applying force.

The only 'force' at work is peer-peer discrimination, as equals, easily avoided, and non-coercive. It is applied only in the context of free association.

The only conflicts are in cases where it is claimed that free association does not apply to the choosing of one's socius. ie, where a state claims a justifies use of force in the forming of forced association.

BTW, in my hypothetical, I wouldn't make it a requirement to direct the use of tax. Folks would be free to specify 'unspecified' and those funds would be directed as they are now, through a(largely unsightly and out of all control) representative political process.

Or, as many in the tribe would say, 'nutty stuff' -- after appealing to some ultimately religious argument in our non-theocracy, jarringly speaking for either God or "S"ociety.






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