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Post 0

Tuesday, September 4, 2012 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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I acknowledge that Craig Biddle's proposal for Government Supported Receipts (GSRs) could bring in large revenues from all forms of businesses and corporations but I submit that this isn't ideal. It allows that the collective (i.e. businesses and corporations) should have the same philosophical prominence as individuals, and that it is unnecessary. If consumers are to have some means of comparing the civic mindedness of those they would do business with they need only look at the level of donations of the CEOs and/or the officers and/or the generosity of the workers as a group, all as a percentage of their salaries. Rating agencies would come up with other innovative indices to help them. With the "More/Less" plan with only individuals contributing it would be impossible for businesses and corporations to know to which programs and to which funds their employees contributed and couldn't discriminate against them.

Just donating money to "the government" via GSRs whether by individuals or businesses with no other conditions attached doesn't provide any control on the direction in which the government should move.

Paul


Post 1

Tuesday, September 4, 2012 - 5:35pmSanction this postReply
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Paul (aka Sam),

I think I like this idea but I need to know more about it. Would you help me to understand it better? Using the concrete example of Justice and Defense, would you please explain the dynamics of donating to the Less Fund? Donating to the More Fund seems easy: whatever you donate is matched via reallocation of money held in the other fund. Staying with the concrete example, if war broke out, I might donate to the More Fund of Defense -- and my donation would be matched by the same amount of money taken out of the Justice system. But let's say that peace "broke out" and I donated to the Less Fund of Defense. To be as concrete as possible, let's say I donate $100 to the Less Fund of Defense.

Where would my money go if I did that, and what would happen regarding the money in the Justice system?

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 9/04, 5:35pm)


Post 2

Tuesday, September 4, 2012 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:
  ...if war broke out, I might donate to the More Fund of Defense -- and my donation would be matched by the same amount of money taken out of the Justice system.
No. You have misunderstood. The money would be matched by the same amount of money taken from the Less Defense fund. The Defense and the Justice funds are completely independent.

Let's start again. If peace broke out what would normally happen is that donors would diminish their contributions to the More fund. Americans would never let the surplus go to zero, as they would recognize the necessity of maintaining a limited military presence, even in the most peaceful of times so they would certainly keep the surplus big enough for the regular extractions of money to keep the military operational. If you wished, you could donate your $100 to the Less fund and this would tend to make the demobilization go faster.

But, in my opinion, contributors to the Less fund would do so as a form of protest, typically in times of unpopular foreign intervention. There would be a struggle between the doves and hawks but money in the Less fund would always be regarded as a reserve, ready to be drawn upon in times of crisis. If and when those times come upon the country increased donations to the More fund would cause the extraction of money from the Less fund to provide a readily available surplus.

Does that help clarify it?

Sam


Post 3

Tuesday, September 4, 2012 - 7:42pmSanction this postReply
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I appreciate your effort!

Why would a government need savings?
Why would anyone want to contribute to the less fund? Wouldn't a man rather want to contribute to the more fund only when he wanted the government to spend his resources?
What would the government do with reserved resources?

I don't think the leeches will vote for this system... they want forced redistribution. "Fair" and "Dignity" are leech keywords. I don't like to use them.

Post 4

Tuesday, September 4, 2012 - 8:24pmSanction this postReply
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Dean:

Why would a government need savings?

So it wouldn't have to borrow. As it is now the government just prints money to fund its social agendas, with no constraint.

Why would anyone want to contribute to the less fund?

As a protest against those who would favor more government involvement. Just not donating to a More fund doesn't do the trick. A donation to the Less fund actively and commensurately disarms the More donors.

Wouldn't a man rather want to contribute to the more fund only when he wanted the government to spend his resources?

Yes, he would want the government to spend his donation. That would be his only reason.

What would the government do with reserved resources?

The government wouldn't do anything with them. They stay in the Less fund until popular opinion shifts so that more people donate to the More fund, depleting the reserves (the Less fund) and increasing the surplus which can then be spent. (The surplus is the difference between the More and the Less fund.)

I don't think the leeches will vote for this system.

Do you mean vote for the system, or donate? Maybe more of them would donate than you think as there would be subtle social pressures that would encourage them. Would it be harder for them to get employment or do business with others? Do you not think that there might be a much greater level of funding under the proposed system than under the current coercive system with all the loopholes? What about morality? Do you think that the present system is more moral and ethical than the one that I have proposed?

Sam


Post 5

Wednesday, September 5, 2012 - 4:49amSanction this postReply
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Sam,

That does clarify things. What you have is a system where various government agencies -- Justice, Defense, etc. -- compete against themselves, and the dollars sent in by citizens only work to mobilize or de-mobilize spending. I like that but I think I would like it more if various government enterprises competed against each other. The dollars sent in by citizens would still mobilize or de-mobilize spending -- but every priority a citizen had would be incorporated into every dollar the citizen sent. This would make it cheaper to get what you want and would prevent the government from stock-piling gobs of money in the Less Funds of some terrible, terrible programs.

Under this system -- where every dollar given to one agency takes away a dollar from all other agencies ($1 total, divided from all other agencies) -- we'd get both the quantity and the quality that we want out of government. Let's say there are 3 funds: Cops, Courts, and Coast Guard. If Johnny donates a dollar to the Cop fund, then 50 cents is taken out of both the Courts fund and the Coast Guard fund. There is one dollar more in the total government funds, but Johnny's preference for how government should spend the money -- and his ability to alter government spending without detracting value from his personal life -- has been vastly increased.

What do you think of that?

Ed


Post 6

Wednesday, September 5, 2012 - 5:37amSanction this postReply
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Ed, I think tacking on "this money can only be used for"... when donating to the government (or anything) is a great option to have. As for the whole "and take funds from something else", I'm not sold on that.

Post 7

Wednesday, September 5, 2012 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Ed:

Do we understand each other's position? My position is that there would be ongoing tension in the operation of a particular program, e.g. Defense, between those who wish more expenditures on defense and those who think that military operations should be reduced. The government would have no other source to pay for the military except from the surplus. If there were no contingency (reserve) in the Less fund it could not respond beyond increased donations to the More fund.

 ...and would prevent the government from stock-piling gobs of money in the Less Funds of some terrible, terrible programs.

The government wouldn't stock pile the money. It would be out of the control of the government to affect how much money would be donated to the Less fund. Yes, there might be gobs of money in the Less fund of terrible programs but its function is to control, and even eliminate, expenditures on the program. The amount in the Less fund would reflect the public's displeasure with the program and if the surplus wasn't large enough for the maintenance of the program, the program would be bankrupt and go out of existence.

Here's what I think might be the procedure to initiate a program, say, for example a program for space exploration. Congress approves the inception of the program. Attached to the program are conditions:
(a) there is a threshold to set it in motion, say $2 billion that must be accrued in the surplus before any expenditures may be made
(b) The minimum amount that would be necessary to just maintain the program without any progress, say $1 billion per year. If the surplus doesn't meet that amount then the program is immediately declared defunct.
(c) a sunset provision. If the program doesn't generate enough revenue over, say, 5 years to provide funds of, say, an average of $2 billion per year then the program would go out of existence.
If a program becomes bankrupt then the donors would be given back what was left (pro-rated) and they could re-allocate those monies.

If Johnny donates a dollar to the Cop fund, then 50 cents is taken out of both the Courts fund and the Coast Guard fund.

I don't understand this. I think you still have a misunderstanding of the basic principle. It only makes sense if you're saying that Johnny has only so much to give, so the Courts program and the Coast Guard program will suffer ... but there's no "taking out" of money from those programs. As well, the "Cop" and "Courts" programs would be a sub-program of the Justice program and the Coast guard program would be part of the Defense program. I don't know how deep one would want to go in defining sub-programs. It could get real picky with a program for school lunches in the Education program.

Sam   

 


Post 8

Saturday, September 8, 2012 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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There were 10 messages lost when the server went down. Please let me recap the conversation and correct me if I’ve misrepresented your position. There were contributions from Ed Thompson, PMH, Steve Wolfer and myself.

 

After some jousting, Ed gave an example of a More fund that had $15k in it, a Less fund that had $5k in it and a person who wanted to disable the program by donating $5k to the Less fund, thus leaving both funds with $10k in them thus reducing the surplus to zero. He asked if this was what I was proposing and I said it was precisely correct. Ed said he thought the scheme was a good one.

 

I suggested that the no-tax proposal could be tried out as a 5 year pilot program at a municipal level, say in New Hampshire, as part of the Free State Project. Steve said that he lauded the Free State Project for the initiative they displayed but didn’t like anything that would have “anarcho-capitalism” in its credo.

 

PMH agreed with Steve.

 

I proposed that  a pilot project wouldn’t have to be in New Hampshire. There are plenty of municipalities in California that are now bankrupt, or about to be. A person or group with deep pockets could buy up the debt, or negotiate to reduce it and, upon agreement with the residents, start over from scratch with no-tax revenue production. Of course, the no-tax scheme could only be applied to those items that are normally under municipal control, i.e. sales tax, business taxes, infrastructure, some police and courts, school tax, house taxes, etc.

 

Sam


Post 9

Sunday, May 26, 2013 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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Sam,
The examples of Justice and Defense are just that but the principle of publicly visible donations could be applied to other (less legitimate, in my view) functions of government such as social policy, environment, consumer protection, and so on.
What I want to know is who would ever donate to a Less fund. Let's say there were 5 departments in the federal government:

1) Dept. of Justice
2) Dept. of Defense
3) Dept. of Social Engineering
4) Dept. of Environmental Protection
5) Dept. of Consumer Protection

At face value, it seems like individualists would donate to the More funds of (1) and (2), because of the demonstrably-objective utility in doing something like that. Also, it seems like progressives would donate to the More funds of (3), (4) and (5), because of the various motives driving their decision-making processes.

But who, if anyone, would ever donate to a Less fund? It seems like lost money. Even if you brought the value of a department down to zero -- so that the department was dismantled, and the funds were returned, proportionately, to those who had donated to the Less fund -- it would seem that you would get your money back but at a much later date (i.e., without interest). But, because of the nature of reality, a dollar today means more than a dollar tomorrow -- so it looks like you would be losing value by donating to a Less fund.

That's currently bugging me.

Ed


Post 10

Sunday, May 26, 2013 - 8:38amSanction this postReply
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Just to make my original line of thinking (earlier in the thread) clear, I had merely proposed a modification wherein there was only such a thing as a More, but that each More fund was in zero-sum rivalry with the others. Here's what it'd look like under that modification of your plan.

If you donate $4 to Defense, then $1 is taken out of Justice, Social Engineering, Environmental Protection, and Consumer Protection. As a crude display, let's start with $100 in each fund:

1) Dept. of Justice .............................[$100]
2) Dept. of Defense ...........................[$100]
3) Dept. of Social Engineering ..........[$100]
4) Dept. of Environmental Protection [$100]
5) Dept. of Consumer Protection .......[$100]
------------------------------------------------
Total = ................................................$500

After your $4 donation to Defense, it'd look like this:

1) Dept. of Justice .............................[$104]
2) Dept. of Defense ...........................[$99]
3) Dept. of Social Engineering ..........[$99]
4) Dept. of Environmental Protection [$99]
5) Dept. of Consumer Protection .......[$99]
------------------------------------------------
Total = ................................................$504

If someone came along and put $4 into Defense, then it'd look like this:

1) Dept. of Justice .............................[$103]
2) Dept. of Defense ...........................[$103]
3) Dept. of Social Engineering ..........[$98]
4) Dept. of Environmental Protection [$98]
5) Dept. of Consumer Protection .......[$98]
------------------------------------------------
Total = ................................................$508

Caveat: The trouble with my modification to your plan is that in order to cut a program, you have got to really over-do it on the programs you like. You would have to send in gobs of money to the programs you like -- in order to bankrupt another program.

My problem is that, if you have a hundred or more terrible programs* and you are trying to both fund good functions of government while displaying disagreement with the funding of bad functions of government, then you are in a pickle -- because there may not be enough funds to fund the good functions of government after chasing all of the bad money out of the system. This is abstract and fuzzy at the moment for me.

Ed

*e.g., Ministry of Underwater Basket-Weaving, Ministry of the Preservation of Haunted Houses, Ministry of the Response to a Possible Insurrection of Zombies, Ministry of Communication with the Unliving, Ministry of Left-Handed Painters of the 20th Century, Ministry of Right-Handed Painters of the 20th Century, Ministry of Left-Handed Painters from the 19th Century who were very likely Discriminated Against, Ministry of Sunny Days, Ministry of Rainy Days, Ministry of Partly-Cloudy Days, Ministry of Other Days that just Don't seem to Fit into Neat Categories, Ministry of Confusion, Ministry of Angst, Ministry of Disenchantment, Ministry of Change, Ministry of Disinterest and Disaffection, etc.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 5/26, 8:41am)


Post 11

Sunday, May 26, 2013 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

I don't know how to express more fully or convincingly to your objection that no one would contribute to a "Less" fund. If you thought that the military was out of control with overseas bases and too much involvement in Afganistan you would want to force the Defense fund to reduce those adventures by reducing their budget. When you contribute to the "Less" fund it reduces the operating budget (the "More" fund) and you have accomplished your goal. Instead of just not donating to a fund you disagreed with, you can take an active step in protesting by donating to the "Less" fund. I'd just be repeating myself in making up scenarios for the other programs you have mentioned.

In the event that an existing program would go broke it would be evidence that the program was very, very undesirable by the donors. Again, the donors to the "Less" fund would have prevailed, to the advantage of everyone, and the loss of interest to the donors wouldn't be onerous, compared to the damage that a continuation of such an unpopular program could do. The money wouldn't languish there for years and years.

Sam 

(Edited by Sam Erica on 5/26, 4:00pm)


Post 12

Sunday, May 26, 2013 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
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Sam,

You're right and I was wrong. Someone tell Mike Marotta.

:-) 

For a second there, I had forgotten that things have prices -- and that the reason you trade money for things is because you value the things more than you value the money. And hey, because of the nature of this particular mental slip, let's agree to keep this to ourselves, okay? As a radical for capitalism, I wouldn't want the entire world to find out that I had made such a slip-up! I mean, that'd be like a socialist forgetting that all factors of production should be publicly owned! Now, of course, we see that all the time -- I mean all of the time -- whenever socialists attempt to implement socialism in the real world (because socialism contradicts various aspects of reality), but that doesn't mean that I have a good excuse to do the same thing as they do.

Ed


Post 13

Monday, May 27, 2013 - 6:25pmSanction this postReply
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You could even treat these funds like bonds and pay the doners interest, as their money sits there.

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Post 14

Monday, May 27, 2013 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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Jules: Exactly. It's not an issue.

I re-wrote this article basically to explain my political position to my many progressive relatives in Canada. I'm a libertarian only insofar as it coincides with Objectivism but I wanted to accentuate the NIOF position of both, with which they might be at least a little sympathetic. They may or may not be monitoring this site.

Sam

Toward a Non-Coercive Society

 

By Paul Hibbert

 

I get the impression that a great number of people don’t understand the bedrock of libertarianism: the principle of non-initiation of force (NIOF), an ideal that I embrace.  Everything in the libertarian philosophy springs from that assertion and if something violates it, it’s not libertarianism. If one wants to construct such a society based on such an ideal one must analyze the conditions. Firstly, the only function of the government should be to protect the individual rights of the citizenry — anything else is by definition, coercive. Those rights are the right to protection from foreign invaders and the right to protection from criminals.  Secondly, the government should provide only those services that cannot be undertaken by individuals. These would be a Department of Defense and a Department of Justice. Individuals cannot protect the nation from being invaded and individuals cannot track down and prosecute criminals but every other function of our present day government can be undertaken by individuals or individuals voluntarily banding together to form charities, schools, fund foreign aid and to organize boycotts, etc.

 

At the heart of the matter is that of taxation which is, by its very nature, coercive. A progressive’s position on taxation is, “I’m a nice person but I don’t trust others to be as nice as I am, therefore I’m going to force others to contribute their fair share to government programs that I deem to be in the public good.” It matters not that those programs might be endorsed by only 51% of the electorate (the tyranny of the majority) or whether they might be ineffective, such as the wars on poverty, drugs and terror. Those are legitimate issues of debate. As distressing as the progressive’s assertion might there is no way to spin it as there is no other rational explanation of their position and they are abrogating their personal responsibility by passing it on to others. So, how can a society be conceived so that it doesn’t violate the NIOF dictum and at the same time imbue the citizens with the conviction that the government is responsive to them?

 

Here is my proposal: Consider, for the time being, only the two functions of the federal government that are necessary for the protection of the rights of citizens, the Department of Defense and the Department of Justice. Funding of them would be from voluntary donations. One could call such a funding to be a “xat” (the opposite of a tax) but a more descriptive term would be a Voluntary Civic Commitment (VCC.)  Two funds for each of those branches will be set up, the “More” Fund and the “Less” Fund. Donors can make contributions to the ”More” Fund of Justice or the “Less” Fund of Justice and the corresponding ones of Defense. Contributions to a More Fund cause an equal amount in the Less Fund to be transferred to it. Similarly, contributions to a Less Fund also cause an equal amount in the More Fund to be transferred to it. Thus, for instance, if a donor wishes that there be more federal money spent on justice he will get his wish, with double benefits, and vice-versa. The operating budget for a program is taken from the More fund. Note that this process is equally fair if one is a progressive or a conservative and that it is responsive to the current sentiments of the donors. The administrators (the bureaucrats under the direction of the elected politicians) are thus limited in the expenditures of their programs.

Money that resides in a Less fund acts as a reserve for future necessities, emergency, or as a savings account for things that the government (in less enlightened times) would have borrowed or floated bonds for. For instance, if in world affairs, war clouds appeared in an otherwise peaceful climate, public opinion would cause large donations to be made to the More Defense fund, thus making even larger amounts of money immediately available by drawing money from the Less fund and transferring it to the More fund.


Norms for donations would spring up quickly with pundits, analysts, commentators, bloggers, politicians, and the media providing opinions and facts to the citizens. If a fund were to be judged under-funded or over-funded the donations would react accordingly. Thus there would be a dynamic, real-time reflection of the wishes of the electorate. Donors could make their contributions whenever they wished. If, in the happy event that the funds were judged over-funded, donors would refrain from contributing anything. Withdrawals from the surplus to fund ongoing operations would deplete the More fund until the program was judged under-funded. As an added example, if, the public felt that the Federal Reserve Board was irrelevant the More fund for that program would dry up because of increased donations to the Less fund. Then the Less fund contributions could then be returned to the donors when the program finally dies.

It would be naďve to think that this could be accomplished without some other motivation on the part of the donors, and that motivation is that their donations would be of public record. Only the amount of their donation would be revealed (unless they requested otherwise) so that their political position could be respected. Charities routinely publish a list of their donors classified as to the amount of the gift and for good reason — the donors are proud to be recognized for their generosity and it encourages further donations. There would be many free-loaders but there are many at the present time: the underground economy with cash transactions, criminals not reporting drug money, loopholes, off-shore income, and on and on. Furthermore, only about one third of the population pays any federal income tax at all. A whole industry exists devoted to minimizing or avoiding federal income tax. Think of what this does to the mentality of those participating in this endeavor. It fosters antagonism toward government even among those most inclined to view government as a benevolent agency and they still take advantage of every loophole, subsidy, grant, incentive, deferment and concession that the government provides in its programs of social engineering, the result of which transfers the tax burden to others who are not as adroit.

In my opinion, donating would become a source of pride that one’s friends and neighbors could appreciate. There would be a paradigm shift from how society regards conspicuous consumption to one of conspicuous generosity — a vast improvement, in my opinion. Undoubtedly there would be some “discrimination” against those who don’t contribute in the sense that those who donate according to the norms would naturally tend to associate and do business with those who do.

I don’t think that corporations or businesses should be allowed to contribute as employees and stockholders might not hold the same views as the entity and they shouldn’t have to contribute to programs with which they may disagree. This would be similar to unions forcing members to contribute to programs that they are opposed to. Anyway, corporate taxes are passed on to the consumers in the form of higher prices for their products so this shouldn’t be a concern.  

Imagine, just imagine, what this would do for both the economy and ethos of the nation. No longer would there be any, I mean any income tax with its stultifying burden on the citizens. Perhaps a million or more smart, well-meaning people could be freed up from trying to do the best they can within the system and instead allocate capital and resources where they can best be used — for the good of everyone. Currently, every business decision has to consider the tax implications and this distorts all the signals that the free market depends on. The newly revealed corrupt IRS would still exist, but at about 1/100th of its present size, and its only duties would be to ensure that the donations were funneled to the correct bucket and to keep an on-line ledger of all the donors and their amounts so that the data are available to anyone at a touch on an iPad. Of course fraud might be a problem so the identity of donors would have to be protected.

The examples of Justice and Defense are just that but the principle of publicly visible donations could be applied to other (less legitimate, in my view) functions of government such as social policy, environment, consumer protection, and so on. One might call these funds Voluntary Civic Donations (VCD’s.) Surely, one can visualize the complex interactions affecting the funds as donors react to the changing “market” forces. Some donors might put all their contribution into the More bucket of a social policy fund, for instance, and others the Less but what will result would be a dynamically stable system that reflects the mood and aspirations of the citizens as to the direction the country should go. In this sense the government would be under control of the citizens rather than the opposite, as it seems to be now. If some donors wished to avoid the requirement of tracking and rating many candidate charities they could follow or subscribe to the recommendations of a guru or politician they admire and have trust in, whether he be an Al Gore or a Rand Paul.

If you believe that a civilized country can’t exist without coercion and that taxation is moral even though it is coercive then you are stuck and can’t move forward. You are reduced to being a pragmatist believing that the present system works — kinda, sorta. Without ideals to provide a framework for all your beliefs then you are inevitably confronted with all kinds of contradictions. The perpetual, vicious fighting between political parties regarding who should be taxed, and by how much, that fosters class warfare would completely disappear with those decisions would be made automatically by each citizen when he votes with his pocketbook. Citizens would tend to take more interest in current events and they would feel, justifiably, that government is responsive to their opinions and needs.

So, no matter whether you’re a progressive or conservative the benefits of a publicly open donation system of funding government should be apparent. In spite of my arguments you might still regard this scheme as impractical, pie-in-the-sky utopianism but nevertheless it’s my contribution to what I think is a means of leaving this world in a better state than when I was brought into it. In my mind, this proposal could release repressed energy and usher in a whole new era of pride and prosperity to the USA that could rival the industrial revolution. That’s my position and I’m stickin’ to it.




Post 15

Saturday, June 1, 2013 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
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Why would a government need savings?


1] -Economies- need savings/investments (deferred spending of past pulls on the pump handle that created current value), or else there is no deflationary balance for credit(Current spending in exchange for future pulls on the pump handle, future creation of value.) Without that balance, there is no balance between current value and current circulating accounts.

The balance between credit and savings/investment is the alchemy by which deferred consumption is converted into future value without perverting the current economies. (It is also how we build the future economies.)

Without that balance, there is not only no conversion of deferred present value into the future, but there is an inflationary(credit always exceeds savings/investment because borrowing is a downhill effort)pressure.


2] See local school district capital accounts; those represent savings of past taxes to pay for future capital expenditures. Instead of a lot of borrowing and debt in the future, school disricts overtax a little bit each year, save it up, and then spend it every so many years on new schools. Some districts, when pinched, augment current budget by spending capital accounts down. This is OK, in that it represents taxes paid in the past, but it is also bad in that it leaves a hole in the budget not paid for with current revenue; the inflated budget(not covered by current revenue)capital account eventually runs dry. Capital accounts should be reserved for one time capital expenditures, not recurring expenditures.

Note that, under the present model (in which the only government savings is by a handful of local school district capital accounts), the sum of all (private+public)credit must be balanced largely only by the sum of all private savings/investment...because there is no public savings/investment.

That should be sobering, unless you don't believe that credit must be balanced by savings/investment.

This is the underlying root cause of endemic inflation in our economies. It is another form of hidden taxation.

It is part of why JFK's federal budget in the early 60's was about $100B dollars, even though that was a nation of 180 million people, and we are only 330 million people, barely not even twice.

It is also why so much of the nation is flat on its ass and doesn't know why.

regards,
Fred





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