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Post 0

Tuesday, January 8, 2013 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

Good essay. You ended with ...
Ayn Rand saw the obvious danger in that, so her criticism of Kant's ethical theory is understandable, even if she did make a straw man.
... and perhaps you could point me toward outlined reasoning, perhaps from Fred Seddon, where it is postulated that Rand's treatment of Kant's ethics involved constructing a straw man to knock down. I would like to be able to see something like that. Also, there is a line in your essay which contains a fallacy, and I'm not sure if it is you who is "agreeing" with the characterization or whether you are merely speaking for Kant (e.g., "Kant would say that ...") -- without explicitly noting the fallacy in what you wrote. Here it is:

We should take a given action because it is the rational thing to do, not because it will benefit us or someone else.
Do you see the fallacy? And do you think this line characterizes Kant's ethics?

Ed


Post 1

Tuesday, January 8, 2013 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, I edited the essay to make it clear that the second thing you quoted was Kant's position.

Regarding "straw man", that was my statement. It was mainly because she (1) called Kant a "theoretician of altruism", which he wasn't, and (2) portrayed Kant's "duty" as being to a higher power, not to reason.
(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 1/08, 5:12pm)


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Post 2

Tuesday, January 8, 2013 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
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One problem that comes to mind about the formulation in #0 is that to do the rational thing you'd have to know what the rational course of action is. Kant said, as I recall, that the right (rational) course of action is the one you undertake when acting on a maxim (principle) that you would want everyone to follow. I should think that, by the time you'd filled the maxim in with enough data to be able to apply it to a particular decision, you'd have included data about people's interests (your own or others'). Thus it would work out to be some sort of utilitarianism or even an ethic of self-interest, and you wouldn't have gotten away from "the commands of prudence" after all.

I can't believe that Kant or his interpreters haven't answered this, but I don't know what they said

[Edited to remove extra bar]

(Edited by Joseph Rowlands on 1/08, 10:20pm)


Post 3

Wednesday, January 9, 2013 - 5:12amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

On fallacy
Okay but there is still a fallacy, as was elaborated on by Peter in #2. If you take the statement:
We should take a given action because it is the rational thing to do, not because it will benefit us or someone else.
And you go ahead and try to apply it to humans, then you just made yourself guilty of fallacy. I think it's the stolen concept, because human rationality can't be separated from human benefit. I'll try to think harder about this ...

On straw man
It was mainly because she (1) called Kant a "theoretician of altruism", which he wasn't, and (2) portrayed Kant's "duty" as being to a higher power, not to reason.
Okay, but there's some gray area in there. You can focus on altruism either being (A) "other-benefiting" or you can focus on it being (B) "self-abnegating". If your focus is on A, then it might be possible to get into the position to say that Kant was not an altruist. Either way, he opened the doors for altruism wider than others did. Regarding "duty vs. reason" I think the above starts to provide an answer that maybe Rand wasn't so wrong after all. You can act for human benefit, or some other kind of a benefit. If you act for some other kind of a benefit, the only reason to do so is because it is a "higher" benefit.

Ed

p.s., As I argue here, it appears that the only way to make a case for altruism is via an appeal to deontology, just as Kant did.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/09, 9:41am)


Post 4

Wednesday, January 9, 2013 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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Okay but there is still a fallacy, as was elaborated on by Peter in #2.
I don't disagree. As I said in the first sentence of the article, my purpose was to give an overview of Kant's ethics, not a defense.

Post 5

Wednesday, January 9, 2013 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

Well, then some of the straw just got taken out of the man with regard to Rand's criticism of Kant's ethics. Kant said to do things because they are right, not because there is any benefit from doing them. There is one top morality I can think of where something like that could be applied to the real world: altruism.

Maybe in the future we will see other moralities arise out of the same method -- this Kantian method -- of arriving at a morality. There might be a morality claiming it is always right to act so as to maximize the existence of cumulus clouds, for example -- and we will do it not because there is a benefit to having those cumulus clouds in the sky, but because it is right to have them in increasing abundance in the sky. It would be right, but not necessarily good.

But at the moment, the main morality arising out of Kant's method is altruism. You could even say that an argument for altruism logically depends on the employment of Kant's method -- although you can personally practice altruism just based on your own unchecked feelings, but that would be based on subjectivism (something which is difficult, if not impossible, to utilize in a logical defense of anything).

Ed


Post 6

Wednesday, January 9, 2013 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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Kant said to do things because they are right, not because there is any benefit from doing them. There is one top morality I can think of where something like that could be applied to the real world: altruism.
The first sentence is correct, but the second doesn't follow. Altruism is for the benefit of someone else, and the following sentence from my article precludes that. "Kant said we should take a given action because it is the rational thing to do, not because it will benefit us or someone else."

Post 7

Wednesday, January 9, 2013 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

Altruism is for the benefit of someone else ...
That's where (and why) we disagree. I think an argument can be made that utilitarianism is (almost always) for the benefit of someone else, because the primary question in utilitarianism is: "Who benefits?"* and the stakeholders in any situation can be assumed to be without knowable limit. As for the philosophic capacity to be able to argue for the morality of altruism based on it being for benefit of others, I've never seen that accomplished before (and I do not think it is possible to accomplish that). Like the 5 main arguments for God, that kind of argument would be unsound.

An alternative view is that altruism is costly behavior (sacrificial behavior) that helps others, but that the personal cost -- the sacrifice -- is the essential characteristic of altruism, in order to differentiate it from other kinds of behavior, such as trade, which helps others but is not altruistic. Now, you seem to believe that altruism is for the benefit of someone else, and perhaps you are aware of philosophical argumentation showing that to be the case. Is there any place where you could point me to such reasoning?

Ed

*The more comprehensive summation of utilitarianism being: "Who benefits, how much, and at what cost to whom?"


Post 8

Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 4:43amSanction this postReply
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Ed,  this book classifies Kant's ethics as a kind of egoism. Both of you are entitled to your opinion, and I will say no more about it.

Post 9

Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 5:06amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

Both of you are entitled to your opinion, and I will say no more about it.
That might be relevant if the subject matter was a matter of opinion, rather than being a matter of fact. But it is not. Perhaps you think it is a matter of opinion and therefore you will continue to believe that altruism is about helping others, even if you cannot find any rational reason to do so. In that case, you had adopted subjectivist ethics in this particular case -- which is not necessarily the end of the world.

I admit that I sometimes think things for no other reason than that I feel them to be true.

Ed

p.s., Eric Mack once argued -- and in my view, successfully -- that it's not natural or normal or even important, to only hold positions promulgated by reason. Human experience is something different than that. We are always a mix of subjectivity and objectivity, and we only progressively eradicate subjectivity when it becomes necessary to do so. The hallmark case of eradication of subjectivity is the courtroom, where rules of engagement have been designed in order to eradicate subjectivity as much as possible (because it is important to do so in such cases). In this vein, you can be perfectly moral without being perfectly objective, as long as you are making some -- at least undulating -- progress, progressively eradicating your subjectivity in those areas where it is important to do so.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/10, 6:29am)


Post 10

Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 7:37amSanction this postReply
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Merlin linked to The Beloved Self in #8. Some discussion of it can be found starting with this post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Robert Johnson’s article Kant’s Moral Philosophy:
    Perhaps the first philosopher to suggest a teleological reading was John Stuart Mill. In the first chapter of his Utilitarianism, Mill implies that the Universal Law formulation of the Categorical Imperative could only sensibly be interpreted as a test of the consequences of universal adoption of a maxim. Several 20th century theorists have followed Mill's suggestion, most notably, R. M. Hare. Hare argued that moral judgments such as “Stealing is wrong” are in fact universal prescriptions (“No stealing anywhere by anyone!”) And because they are universal, Hare argued, they forbid making exceptions. That in turn requires moral judgments to give each person's wellbeing, including our own, equal weight. And when we give each person's wellbeing equal weight, we are acting to produce the best overall outcome. Thus, in his view, the CI is “simply utilitarianism put into other words” (Hare, 1993, p. 103). More recently, David Cummiskey (Cummiskey, 1996) has argued that Kant's view that moral principles are justified because they are universalizable is compatible with those principle themselves being consequentialist. Indeed, Cummiskey argues that they must be: respect for the value of Humanity entails treating the interests of each as counting for one and one only, and hence for always acting to produce the best overall outcome.

    There are also teleological readings of Kant's ethics that are non-consequentialist. Barbara Herman has urged philosophers to “leave deontology behind” as an understanding of Kant's moral theory on the grounds that the conception of practical reason grounding the Categorical Imperative is itself a conception of value. Herman's idea is that Kant never meant to say that no value grounds moral principles. That, she argues, would imply that there would be no reason to conform to them. Instead, Kant thought the principles of rationality taken together constitute rational agency, and rational agency so constituted itself functions as a value that justifies moral action. (1993, 231) Herman's proposal thus has Kant's view grounding the rightness of actions in rational agency, and then in turn offering rational agency itself up as a value. Both Paul Guyer and Allen Wood have offered proposals that differ from Herman's in content, but agree on the general form of teleology that she defends as a reading of Kant. Guyer argues that autonomy itself is the value grounding moral requirements. Moral thinking consists in recognizing the priceless value of a rational agent's autonomous will, something in light of whose value it is necessary for any rational agent to modify his behavior (1998, 22-35). And Wood argues that humanity itself is the grounding value for Kant. While the second Critique claims that good things owe their value to being the objects of the choices of rational agents, they could not, in his view, acquire any value at all if the source of that value, rational agency, itself had no value. (1999, 130; see also pp. 157-8)



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Post 11

Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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Stephen,
David Cummiskey (Cummiskey, 1996) has argued that Kant's view that moral principles are justified because they are universalizable is compatible with those principle themselves being consequentialist. Indeed, Cummiskey argues that they must be: respect for the value of Humanity entails treating the interests of each as counting for one and one only, and hence for always acting to produce the best overall outcome.
Cummiskey is begging the question. Every morality can be rationalized as being consequentialist (i.e., producing the best outcomes). All you have to do is use the standards of good taken from that morality, and then apply the morality to those standards, and then evaluate the results. When an ascetic starves his way into heaven, he is being practical and, according to his morality, he is producing the best outcome. He is being a pragmatist or a utilitarian. I could give different examples but I'll assume that you get this point.

So, when Cummiskey says that "treating the interests of each as counting for one and one only, and hence for always acting to produce the best overall outcome." -- he is assuming the utilitarian maxim that the needs or wants of the many outweigh the needs or wants of the few. That's how he can be so confident that you will get the best overall outcome. Under that logic, 51% of the population could vote away the rights of the other 49%, because when morality is looked upon as an algebraic equation (as it is under utilitarianism) -- that is the best overall outcome.

Another example would be the death penalty for petty crimes. If you institute the death penalty for all crime (including petty crime), a select few with suffer immensely -- they will lose their lives -- but crime rates would plummet so much that the benefit to the greater number of people would vastly outweigh the cost of their sacrifices. You arrive at these situations by treating the interests of each as counting for one and only one.

The notion of morality being the enterprise of juggling or balancing a multitude of competing interests, a notion common to utilitarians, already adopts a view of man (the popular view of man perpetuated by collectivists and religionists). Saying that Kant's view is commensurate with utilitarianism does not tell us something about Kant's view, it tells us something about utilitarianism -- it is merely an elaborate form of subjectivism, wherein popular principles are adopted often without the conscious awareness of the ethicist.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/10, 1:46pm)


Post 12

Thursday, January 10, 2013 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Off the cuff, concerning their understanding of what is Kant’s ethics—not in common understanding of him, but in what he wrote (in CPR and in his three books on ethics)—I’d say Mill, Hare, and Cummiskey were off the mark. Because of Kant’s emphasis on the autonomy of the agent as value, it is not plausible that he can concur with a utilitarian calculus for decision in which one weights one’s interests as one among the interests of the billions of people in the world. The self-interest Kant puts paramount is autonomous rational-agent interest, and it does not get weighed in with interests of others in some sort of aggregation or balance. That self-interest of one's, in Kant's moral view, is entirely compatible with that self-interest of others.

The pure deontology view of Kant looks off the mark as well. That one is the common (pedestrian, anyway,) understanding of Kant.

Herman’s view of Kant strikes me as the most likely on the money. Second most likely would be Guyer’s.

Wood’s take on this seems off the mark to me. I’ve read his book (which is very fine overall), and it seemed he was stretching a bit in places where he tried to make Kant’s morality a rationale for the modern liberal welfare state.

My own writings on Kant’s ethics are in the essay “Kant’s Wrestle with Happiness and Life,” whose sections are as follows:

To 1781
Towards 1785
Into 1785
Moral Worth, Necessary and Free – A
Moral Worth, Necessary and Free – B

Because this essay is posted on the web, you can search the document for phrases of interest. On my Mac, that is Command F. I just tried it for one of the fun phrases I remembered from writing that massive work: “good will.” Comparison with Rand is peppered throughout, as you can sample immediately on that particular search.

Your remark about stretching Kant to get a better fit with the moral position one is in favor of reminded me of some things Adolf Eichmann said at his trial. He tried to justify his “just doing my duty” by appeal to Kant’s doctrines on duty (which actually, between you and me and fence post, certainly did not come down to following orders). On further questioning, however, Eichmann had to admit that by the time it came to the murders, he knew damn well he was in flat opposition to Kant’s doctrine of treating others as ends in themselves.


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Post 13

Friday, January 11, 2013 - 6:00amSanction this postReply
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The pure deontology view of Kant looks off the mark as well. That one is the common (pedestrian, anyway,) understanding of Kant.
It seems to me all the broad classifications of ethics -- egoism, altruism, deontological, consequentialism, utilitarianism, virtue -- are not mutually exclusive. Instead, they are what is emphasized.

Kant's ethics is usually classified as deontological. However, his categorical imperative is consequentialist, but about "logical consequences" rather the kinds of consequences given here. Also, the review of Barbara Herman's Moral Literacy (referenced by Stephen on another RoR thread) says "Herman develops a Kantian virtue theory" (link).

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 1/11, 6:29am)


Post 14

Friday, January 11, 2013 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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Stephen,

Thanks for the links. I'll take time to look them over before responding ...

Ed


Post 15

Friday, January 11, 2013 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

I think you are dangerously mistaken. Stephen (in # 12) brought up a dastardly appeal to flexible application of moralities with this quote:

Your remark about stretching Kant to get a better fit with the moral position one is in favor of reminded me of some things Adolf Eichmann said at his trial. He tried to justify his “just doing my duty” by appeal to Kant’s doctrines on duty ..
Now that's bad, but your post # 13 makes things even worse than that. Imagine interrupting the Nazi guard as he closes the door to the populated gas chamber and is about to flip the switch:

You:
What are you doing? You are about to act immorally.

Guard:
No I'm not, I'm just emphasizing. Morality all flows together. It's time for some serious existentialism. You get to take things as a hodge-podge mixture and emphasize where you want to. This makes my actions above moral reproach.

You:
But man has a need not just of morality, but of the right morality.

Guard:
That's hocus-pocus stuff from Ayn Rand. It's not really true that man has a need for morality. It's your personal choice, the lines blur, there is not mutual exclusion -- and you get to just emphasize where you want to. I'm emphasizing on ridding the world of a group of people I hate.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/11, 10:35am)


Post 16

Friday, January 11, 2013 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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Reply to post 15:

I didn't imagine that somebody would twist my words far beyond recognition. Then I saw it was Ed, and that explained it.

Post 17

Friday, January 11, 2013 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

I'm not going to get upset that, because I've been offensive and it made you act/feel defensive, you are making fun of me. In public forums, making fun of others is self-limiting because people lose interest, especially here. But I'm not going to back off, either. You said:
all the broad classifications of ethics -- egoism, altruism, deontological, consequentialism, utilitarianism, virtue -- are not mutually exclusive.
... and the only way to take that is as it is worded: egoism (self-concern) and altruism (self-immolation) are not mutually exclusive. Deontology (to hell with the consequences) and consequentialism (consequences justify the means) are not mutually exclusive. That pretty much obliterates the "conceptibility" of morality -- or the ability to think in principles -- because it melts principles together.

Any evil in the world becomes possible if you do that kind of a thing.

Ed


Post 18

Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 1:46amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Your #17 is a misinterpretation of what Merlin said in #13. You are taking it out of its conversational context.

It was to be understood that he was talking about the various emphases different interpreters have given to facets of Kant’s ethics.

Most large-system philosophers have elements in their philosophy that outsiders will see as in tension or in contradiction with each other. The scholars will try to see how the philosopher’s seemingly contradictory positions could be made consistent, by more exact grasp of possible special ways the philosopher was using terms. In Rand’s case, a tension often mentioned is between egoism and individual rights. Some of us then want to argue that there is no opposition between the two in Rand’s ethics, when she is understood exactly and with full context, meaning with her wider text and with the charitable presumption that she aims for reality and goodness.

If after thorough effort along those lines to alleviate tensions or contradictions in a philosopher’s writings, we are unsuccessful, a further charitable step may be taken. That is to find what view of the philosopher can be removed, while best leaving the rest of the philosophy intact. All of these efforts can help us in precising our own comprehension of existence and value.


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Post 19

Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 5:16amSanction this postReply
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Your #17 is a misinterpretation of what Merlin said in #13. You are taking it out of its conversational context.

It was to be understood that he was talking about the various emphases different interpreters have given to facets of Kant’s ethics.
What I said in #13 is typified by the different interpretations of Kant, but "dominant" is a better word than "emphasized" and I did mean it more broadly than just Kant. Even Rand's version of egoism has some regard for the interests of others, i.e. altruism. "On what ground is it then assumed that an egoist does or must judge his self-interest by the arbitrary whim of the moment? On what ground is it assumed that his interests are antagonistic to or incompatible with the interests of others? On what ground is it assumed that human relationships have no personal value to a man and that an egoist has to be indifferent to all other human beings?” (Letters of Ayn Rand, 553-4). On the other hand, I meant nothing like a 'hodge-podge mixture all melted together' (words from Ed's portrayal of what I said).
(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 1/12, 8:35am)


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