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Monday, February 18, 2013 - 5:37amSanction this postReply
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Thirty-nine sanctions so far, including my own, and yet, no one offers any discussion.  Knowing that Joseph Rowlands is an Objectivist, I read the article through that filter, and I accepted it as a nice summary of what we all believe to be true.  Reading it as if it were offered by someone who is not an Objectivist changed much of the meaning.  Many statements became putative. Eventually, it all fell apart. 

I chafed at his masculine pronouns.  I know the rule of grammar, but I try to write around it, often using "they". Yesterday, on my blog, I reviewed Monsters of the Id: Science is Mankind's Last Great Hope ("man" again), a documentary about the 1950s science fiction movies that inspired a generation of scientists.  To make a supporting point, I picked an example from Them, and said:
Perhaps the essential characteristic of the scientists of the 1950s film – also not mentioned in Monsters of the Id – is that they are generalists: “scientists.”  Dr. Patricia Medford (Them) was an entomologist, just as we met physicists, astronomers, and mathematicians. However, each of them was an artesian well of information about anything that needed to be explained at the moment.   Science is not an object or a subject, but a method.  While other people rely on faith (superstition) or force (the military solution), the scientist reasons from facts and tests her hypothesis. 


Also on my blog is a review of She's Such a Geek! Women Write about Science, Technology,  Other Nerdy Stuff.  (I previewed that with an earlier post, "You only have to be better to be equal".)   The fact is that today, here and now, more women than men graduate with science degrees.  The times they are achangin'  But I understand the default grammar, so I read past it the first time. I stopped at the obvious error of "that" for "who."  So, Rowlands was not being grammatical: he was being a guy.  (I had no problem with his starting a sentence with a conjunction: "Because reality is objective."  I accepted that as a rhetorical device.)

Why pick at these little problems?  We all make mistakes when writing passionately online.  Grammar defines how we think.  It matters.  And this was an Article, a serious posting, not an ad hoc or ad lib argument.  If he was writing  emotionally - I like the phrase "the words have blood" - then perhaps his reasoning was not as tight as it first appeared when I knew that I would agree with it.  It was not.

You cannot prove the validity of induction.  That is the very problem of induction, much discussed here.  Rowlands's comments in those exchanges were suggestive and insightful.  Here, he was in error. 
A scientists who takes all of this for granted and plunges into philosophy will not appreciate the fact that he is making assumptions that may not be true.  He won't grasp that he can't legitimately prove a point if he's unintentionally assuming it.  A scientist that proves induction is real by pointing at all of the real world examples of how we gained knowledge from it would be one such example.


(Ignore the subject-verb disagreement.  You cannot proofread your own writing.)  A scientist would not attempt to prove induction.  She accepts it.  On the other hand, philosophers do investigate it. 
Moreover, I believe that an inductive approach to the problem of induction is valid because tautologies are identities.  The scientific method itself can be tested via the scientific method.  A is A.

I believe that the many errors in formal philosphy all stem from the same failure of not engaging the scientific method.  Rational-empiricism (objectivism) is the only complete and correct method for solving any problem from picking groceries to finding a spouse.  Reality is real. 

Rowlands's thesis (as I understood and accepted it) was easy to agree with. Scientists pass over philosophy as useless because much of it is.  Science eclipsed philosophy in the Enlightenment, when science stopped being "natural philosophy." Perhaps that, too, was an intellectual error.  Perhaps science should have claimed natural philosophy and left the German and English universities to their unnatural philosophies.

Over on MSK's OL, in a similar discussion last night, I made the point that painting was challenged by photography.  (So my art history professor said.)  No longer able to represent better than the camera, artists explored impressionism, expressionism, dada, and so on.  However, that is not entirely true. The Academy school delivered positive, heroic, uplifting, and fulfilling paintings of real people, or of "realistic" representations, there being no gods or angels. 

Young Girl Defending Herself against Eros 1880 - William-Adolphe Bouguereau - www.bouguereau.org

So, too, with philosophy, did the self-proclaimed mainstream deny reality and our ability to know it, rationally, empirically, or entirely.  However, not all was lost.  Although Paul Feyerabend was hired by the University of California Berkeley in 1958, something else was happening in New York City.

Ayn Rand's approval of "bootleg Romanticism" embraced science fiction.  She was a fan of Star Trek (the original series).  Science fiction often takes on the problems of philosophy, especially epistemology and metaphysics.  Scientists never really abandoned philosophy.  They just stopped wasting their time in university classrooms where they were not welcomed.

In Rowlands's weakest claim he falls into a false dichotomy.

Based on an overall moral goal, science could determine whether an action promotes or detracts from that goal.  But what about the goal itself?  Can science test whether the goal is real or not?  True or not?  No. 



Certainly, the discovery of truth is science: observing the world, reasoning about your perceptions, forming an explanation, and then testing your claim.  The traditional method of rational-empiricism is objectivism and Ayn Rand gave it a capital-O. 

The scientific method can be taught to children as a simple five-step process.  Before he died in 2012, Norman W. Edmund, founder of Edmund Scientific, created a website for his 14-step scientific method.  Like the "rocket boys" of the "October skies" millions of us in that generation bought the lenses, magnets, experiments, kits, parts, and assemblies.  Atlas Shrugged was written for us.

I still think that Joseph's essay was a nice statement.  It was easy to agree because I already knew him though Rebirth of Reason.  I think that the problem is not so much his understanding or exposition as it is the challenge of explaining something complicated in a few hundred words.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 2/18, 5:52am)


Post 1

Monday, February 18, 2013 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
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Joe, I agree that clarifying the boundaries and intellectual commerce between science and philosophy is worthwhile. I would stress, however, that this is not the same as a division of scientists and philosophers. Science and mathematics have developed much of their own spectacularly effective methods. In those developments the thinking was both philosophic and scientific.

I concur that philosophers, if adequately informed in a science, can help clarify the relationships of key concepts within the science. I concur that scientists sometimes make philosophic claims that are crude to the point of Junior High imprecision.

I would be wary of the simplicity of your historical statement “The dawn of science occurred when people started looking at the world to see how it actually worked, instead of surmising how it should work.” Yes, that was a seismic shift, but it was a very bumpy one. Babylonian astronomy was dedicated to observing what was happening in the night sky and finding any patterns there, even ones over multiple years. Major motivations were for astrology and for social power of priests through genuine, if secret, mathematical characterization of celestial patterns of motion.

Greek astronomy subsequently laid a lot of “perfect” geometric form on their characterization of those observations. The culminating model best fitting the observations (on a mistaken geocentric assumption) was that of Ptolemy. That he and his Greek predecessors imagined mechanical assemblies carrying around celestial bodies in various combinations of circular motion was a bit “perfectionist” in choice of the circle as elementary form in terms of which to try to compose the resultant actual motions. But it was on the other hand valid to try for a geometrical-model characterization, such as would bear eventual fruit with the mathematically more advantaged Kepler (and on the correct, heliocentric assumption) when Newton supplied, not another machine-like assembly, but proper dynamics of force and acceleration.


Post 2

Monday, February 18, 2013 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I made three different attempts to write a reply to Joe's article. This is a subject that desperately needs discussion. Today we see the effect of science being politicized with crap studies that pretend to prove points supported by their authors - as in climate change, or in attempts to prove crime (and every other behavior) to be exclusively a matter of genetics, or upbringing, but not choice. We see studies in statistics backing both sides of the gun control issue. We see pseudo-science everywhere we turn. Juries bring in verdicts in both criminal and civil trials after listening to scientific testimony. We can see those occasions where science has come adrift from its philosophical base. And too much of philosophy has become a form of academic masturbation.

I deleted my three attempts because they didn't measure up. Because I knew I'd have to do more study and put in more thought before I could speak intelligently to the way in which we categorize knowledge, the way we judge the methods of judging what it is true, and those two in-betweens: philosophy of science (i.e., all science), and the philosophy of the individual science (e.g., philosophy of physics, or chemistry, or biology, or psychology, etc.)
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I was sorry to see that the first post here was one that involves getting all picky and prissy about the PC use of pronouns. To me, when a person launches into an attack of an article where there was clearly no gender issues under discussion, and the article's use of pro-nouns isn't out of the norm, it makes me think of an angry midget wanting to mount some great moral steed to trample over others.... just an image in my mind, and besides a thing can't be politically correct in its motivation and be a great anything. After all, PC itself is a kind or moral midget hysterically running in the wrong direction.
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You said, "Here, he was in error." Then you quote this passage of Joe's:
A scientists who takes all of this for granted and plunges into philosophy will not appreciate the fact that he is making assumptions that may not be true. He won't grasp that he can't legitimately prove a point if he's unintentionally assuming it. A scientist that proves induction is real by pointing at all of the real world examples of how we gained knowledge from it would be one such example.
And you wrote:
A scientist would not attempt to prove induction.
Excuse me, but Joe said he was talking about a scientist who plunges into philosophy. That's not an error unless you are saying that no scientist has or even could do such a thing.
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Again and again I was struck with how condescending your little grammar lesson was. Why would you feel the need to point out trivial grammatical errors? Not a one of them got in the way of clearly understanding what he was saying. I, for example, have ignored your spelling errors in other threads, not just because they are minor, but because they are beside the point and don't get in the way of deriving your meaning. And, I realize that had I pointed out your spelling errors, that it would be an attack that was dishonest at its core - like a smirky, passive-aggressive, hidden ad hominum attack.

I don't want to attack you. I want to attack ideas or processes that I believe are wrong and harmful. If I had pointed out your spelling errors, it would be a case of implying I was superior to you in a way that is difficult to counter because it is so NOT on target with the issue at hand. It would be a passive-aggressive, less than honest kind of argument. Sarcasm is like that as well... especially if the object of the sarcasm is not the conceptual object of the issue at hand.
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I came away from your reply feeling somewhat disgusted. I had the sense that you just pissed on Joe's leg to vent some inner anger of your own - and just disguised your real motives with the condescending grammatical and PC gender comments. (In case anyone isn't aware, I think that Political Correctness is a epistemological and moral disease)

And then you continued fleshing out your post, mindful of the audience comes with a post, you quickly segued in and out of the Marotta bird-shot style of mentioning bits and pieces of history, with names and dates and events, but that aren't tied together very tightly and only have in common a kind showy, "Look at how much I know" attitude.

Then rounding things out, you take another opportunity to pimp your blog after which I assume you could put away your keyboard feeling like a superior grammatical being who has let the world know that, from the lofty heights of the Marotta opinion, Joe's article was contaminated not just with political incorrectness, and grammatical imperfections, but also had errors of logic and weak spots. Too bad you didn't really address the article in a substantial way. Too bad you didn't offer valid evidence of any errors or weak logic. Oh, well, there is the grammar.
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Here are some simple justice rules of thumb: If you can't demonstrate an error with some degree of sufficiency, then you shouldn't announce it. If the heart of your attack on a posting is x, then x should be of equal or greater in measure to the stature of the subject in what's under attack. If not, keep it to yourself.


Post 3

Monday, February 18, 2013 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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Steve,
I think that Political Correctness is a epistemological and moral disease
It extends a hijack but I think this is important. On Glenn Beck today they had audio of a compulsory USDA seminar on PC, diversity, sensitivity, and tolerance. It was unlike anything I have ever heard in modern times (i.e., it was remniscient of NAZI indoctrinations). There is a really good reason to be against PC.

Ed


Post 4

Monday, February 18, 2013 - 1:45pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I saw a film clip of that awful training (better called what it was, "brain washing"). I sense the pace of indoctrination increasing in the culture.

On an unrelated topic... Is it just me, or is the ROR server moving slower than December molasses?

Post 5

Monday, February 18, 2013 - 2:18pmSanction this postReply
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Slow for me.

Post 6

Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - 5:25amSanction this postReply
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Steve Wolfer mischaracterized my reply to Joseph Rowlands's essay. As I said, I approved it the Red Check of Sanction myself. Like Steve, I gave it more thought. The little problems popped up first, making the deeper discussion necessary. Rowlands has written well about induction. See his comments on David Harriman's The Logical Leap. In fact, Rowlands does not agree with the mainstream Objectivist theories. Though I found no final proof in his comments there, I did find much to think about. I downloaded them into a Word document and I have them here on my Macintosh so that I can re-read them for consideration.

In this case, I believe that not all of the statements in the opening essay were truths. Here on RoR, as in life, we discuss by dialectic. We argue our disagreements. This is not a group hug. We still like each other (or not), but the intellectual give-and-take is the sine qua non of a message board dedicated to philosophy.

Today's Google search engine celebrates Copernicus's birthday. Their art is wrong. Copernicus did not model the solar system with elliptical orbits. Like the Greeks, he used circles. Was that "science" or "philosophy"?

William Whewell invented the word "scientist" in 1834. By then, science and philosophy were distinct studies. Had they not become separated, we might now be considering "meta-natural-philosophy." To me, the methodology remains the rational-empirical structure-and-test.

Stephen Boydstun: "Greek astronomy subsequently laid a lot of “perfect” geometric form on their characterization of those observations. The culminating model best fitting the observations (on a mistaken geocentric assumption) was that of Ptolemy. That he and his Greek predecessors imagined mechanical assemblies carrying around celestial bodies in various combinations of circular motion was a bit “perfectionist” in choice of the circle as elementary form in terms of which to try to compose the resultant actual motions. But it was on the other hand valid to try for a geometrical-model characterization, such as would bear eventual fruit with the mathematically more advantaged Kepler (and on the correct, heliocentric assumption) when Newton supplied, not another machine-like assembly, but proper dynamics of force and acceleration."


But is it not true that today we speak of "fields" not "forces"? Force and acceleration still work. We still speak of "sunrise" and "sunset." The model you choose depends on your needs. Broadly, however, Newton was more correct than Ptolemy, but we are still advancing as best we can. We have no final answers there.

Also, I have found no statements from ancient times that given a ship to sail the heavens, they expected to find big wheels and gears made of quintessence. And it is critical for us to grasp the fact that Ptolemy's model was based on the best empirical science of the time: Archimedes attempted to measure the parallax required by the heliocentric model and failed. It was the Michelson-Morely Experiment of his time.






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Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 7

Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - 10:04amSanction this postReply
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My work on ancient astronomy is here, Babylonian in §II, Greek in section §III.

Post 8

Saturday, April 13, 2013 - 11:24pmSanction this postReply
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Stephen, I agree that the division between science and philosophy is not the same as the division between scientists and philosophers. It may be the lack of philosophical interest or education that led scientists to take a more reality-oriented approach. But without a clear distinction between science and philosophy, the foundation of science can't remain steady for long.



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