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Monday, June 24, 2013 - 5:34pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Good article!

What do you think of this as a description: Loyalty is a measure of the commitment to a value, be it in the form of a person, country, or ideology. When such loyalty rationally arises out of a consistency with the person's deeper values, it is a virtue.

It makes sense to call it a measure since it only arises or becomes meaningful when there is a conflict or cost involved. If I keep going back to the same company again and again over time, it might be mistaken for loyalty. But for me to be considered loyal I'd have to keep going back to that company despite an alternative. Clearly, some examples of people being trying to justify their 'loyal' behavior might not be rational. But suppose the people at my example company have many times gone to an effort to ensure I was happy, and that is the basis of my loyalty - even in the face of slightly lower prices from a competitor.

If this is loyalty, how is it different from a simple decision to stand by the competitor that serves my best interests in the widest context, not just with price? I think it has something to do with the word "commitment" - maybe there is an emotional component that accompanies what goes with a rational (or irrational) decision.

So, maybe it should carry a definition that contains not only "measurement of a commitment" but that it has an emotional component as well.

Regardless of the emotional aspect, it also appears to be a way to shift something into a slightly different personal category. There is efficiency and value in being able to put something in a category that allows us to forego doing a full evaluation of all contenders for our business/friendship/support/etc. There are a whole different set of rules that let me interact with those who I am loyal to that give me more power/efficiency than with others. (Needless to say, altruists are not likely to see this aspect when they are instead looking to use loyalty to pry some self-sacrifice loose).

Maybe loyalty has to be understood as a two part thing. First there is that which one values that is held in abstract, then there is a commitment, and perhaps emotional attachment, to something, in specific, that embodies those values. And it is because it embodies those values that a commitment comes about. For example, I value dealing with people who treat my interests as important to them. That is abstract value. Again and again a particular company shows that they are willing to make an effort to see that I'm satisfied with the results of our transactions. I make a commitment to this company, because of this alignment with my values and it is accompanied by a fondness for them and their way of working. I forego cheaper prices at one of their competitors out of "loyalty".

It seems to be similar to integrity, which is a loyalty to ones values, or at least consistency of values. But integrity doesn't say that a commitment is made, or seem to contain a necessary emotional component. Integrity seems to be more of a measurement of logical consistency. Integrity is directly related to self-esteem, and that gives it an indirect emotional component, or after effect. I'd say that being loyal to ones values would be an act of self-assertion as well as containing integrity and that would be a strongly promote self-esteem (as long as the loyalty is based on non-defensive reasoning).


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Monday, June 24, 2013 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
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I withheld my sanction.  I do not disagree, but only cannot agree with the entirety of the post.  In the case of the mercenary soldier, if you are good at the craft, does it matter if you work for Ruritania or Zamunda? In George Bernard Shaw's The Arms and the Man (The Chocolate Soldier), our hero is Swiss fighting with Serbia against Bulgaria. The young woman into whose bedroom he has fled following a route is all agush with patriotic fervor for her betrothed, the idiot who led a cavalry charge against a machine gun emplacement. (The guns jammed.)  She is further shocked when he happily discovers that his father has died.  Now, he can leave the army, collect his inheritance, and return to Switzerland. Clearly, he is loyal to his own interests.

On my job as a security guard, I ensure the safety of a Morgan-Stanley office regardless of their relationship to Timothy Geithner and the US Treasury. I serve the needs of my client. Like the Chocolate Soldier, I am loyal to my own values.

I just finished reading Sex on the Moon by Ben Metzrich about Thad Roberts who stole moon rocks from the safe of a NASA scientist.  After the dust settled and he was in federal prison for 100 months, another former student who had been in class with him reached out. Matt's response was to the larger person whose single transgression could not negate the intelligent and creative nature of the achiever who strove almost well but in a very wrong direction.

I do not know.  I have no answer.

It may be that "loyalty" is like "duty" or "selfishness" just a vague word learned fromn the common culture; and we understand it in context, if at all.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 6/24, 6:36pm)


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Monday, June 24, 2013 - 7:13pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

It is normally not that the word that is vague, but rather its usage is vague. 'Selfish', as we Objectivists know so well, is a word with a precise objective meaning, but that has a long history of being used in vague, ambiguous or improper ways.

You said that you serve the need of your clients when you ensure the safety of a Morgan-Stanley office. Isn't there a commitment to doing that job well? I'm sure there is. And isn't that commitment held, not only as a rational decision regarding what is right, and what is a value, but also with an emotional component? And isn't there a 'measure' of commitment involved such that you will continue to honor that commitment unless the client does something far more heinous than associating with Geithner, but not continue the association if there was some more immoral behavior? If so, then isn't that loyalty?

My position is that it can't be loyalty without, by its nature, being tightly connected to your own values. I discriminate between loyalty built on rational values (like those I mentioned above where you honor a commitment to your clients) and a loyalty that is based upon false values (like loyalty to the Third Reich). Very different kinds of loyalty.

And there are motivations that make a difference. One person might hold onto a loyalty out of a fear or a defensiveness, or just because his friends do, while another does so out of integrity relating to positive values.

My post wasn't one calling out for a sanction, or making a claim to be right on a subject. I was stimulated by Joe's article and attempted to look at loyalty as a virtue... from my perspective, which as usual, included a psychological aspect.

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Tuesday, June 25, 2013 - 6:44amSanction this postReply
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Steve, thanks for the reinteration of your insights.  As above, they reflect the broad theme of Rowlands's essay. I have no specific disagreements.  I only wonder about "duty."  I do not need to quote the entire citation: "The meaning of the term “duty” is: the moral necessity to perform certain actions for no reason other than obedience to some higher authority, without regard to any personal goal, motive, desire or interest."

Following your suggestion that "loyality" has an objective meaning, even if other people are mushy in their thinking, then, we could give "duty" a specifcally objective (Objectivist) meaning such as "action in loyalty to your values."  But we do not.

What is loyality that self-interest is not?  By definition - all through Joseph's essay and your reflections - loyality is always to someone or something outside of yourself.  "Loyalty" to your own values is integrity.  We do not need two different words for the same thing. 

Suppose I wrote that we have faith in science because we expect science to work.  Faith means deep expectation.  I have faith in my wife's loyalty to me in our marriage.  In the Bible it is said (Hebrews 11:1) that faith is evidence of things unseen.  In other words, we expect certain truths by consistency.  I have never been off this planet, but without seeing other worlds, I have certain deep expectations about their natures. 

Now - don't get me wrong; I am not advocating that as a positive argument.  I only mean - as you would agree - that faith has an objective meaning that denies science.  And I wonder (not having thought this through) if "loyalty" is the same kind of problem, that it has a meaning indeed, but not one that is consonant with Objectivist virtues.  The Objectivist word for "loyality" is "intergrity" just as the Objectivist word for "faith" is "evidence."

Again, I understand your explanation of my "loyalty" to the safety of my client.  But I think that integrity explains that.  ... but maybe not...


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Tuesday, June 25, 2013 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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Michael,
What is loyality that self-interest is not? By definition - all through Joseph's essay and your reflections - loyality is always to someone or something outside of yourself. "Loyalty" to your own values is integrity. We do not need two different words for the same thing.
I'm just chewing on these ideas, rather than claiming to have a last word. But, I think that loyalty is totally different from self-interest, because a person could be loyal to something that harms his self-interest (e.g., loyal to a cause that calls for sacrifice). As to loyalty always being to someone or something outside of yourself... I see it as a kind of bridge between a value held internally in abstract form, and something specific outside (but maybe that's too tightly defined). And it wouldn't be an Objectivist virtue unless the internal value was a real value.

I agree that there is a little confusion regarding this view of loyalty and integrity. But I'd say that loyalty is a commitment and contains an emotional component whereas integrity is more a result or character trait or measure of consistency than a commitment and there isn't the same kind of emotional component that exists with loyalty.
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I can imagine circumstances where your integrity as it applies to providing a quality service to your client remains unchanged, but as the client becomes less moral, your loyalty to them diminishes. Your actions would not change one whit... not at the present time, but if loyalty is a measurement of commitment, there might come a point down the road where loyalty will go so low, that you will no longer see standing by them as serving your integrity (which will not have changed). They will no longer be in that category of entities to whom you grant loyalty, because of how they have changed. And when they drop out of that category, you easily reevaluate them regarding other issues of integrity and see that they now requires that you drop them. If that makes sense to you, then I have shown that the two words may be similar, may be related, but definitely don't mean the same thing.
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Loyalty = measurement of commitment + applies to something outside of self + arises when it is an example of what you value in principle + comes with an emotional component + elevates the object into a special relational category

Integrity = measurement of consistency regarding principles + applies to principles held versus principles applied + applies to beliefs versus actions + applies to not holding conflicting or contradictory principles or beliefs + implies showing loyalty to ones principles

Post 5

Tuesday, June 25, 2013 - 3:57pmSanction this postReply
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http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=loyal

loyal (adj.) Look up loyal at Dictionary.com
1530s, in reference to subjects of sovereigns or governments, from Middle French loyal, from Old French loial, leal "of good quality; faithful; honorable; law-abiding; legitimate, born in wedlock," from Latin legalem, from lex "law." In most cases it has displaced Middle English leal, which is from the same French source. Sense development in English is feudal, via notion of "faithful in carrying out legal obligations." In a general sense (of dogs, lovers, etc.), from c.1600. As a noun meaning "those who are loyal" from 1530s (originally often in plural).

Post 6

Tuesday, June 25, 2013 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, thanks, once more.  Like you, I am only "chewing on the ideas" not so much proposing this or that.

I agree that you have developed good "equations" for loyalty and integrity.
Loyalty = measurement of commitment + applies to something outside of self + arises when it is an example of what you value in principle + comes with an emotional component + elevates the object into a special relational category

Integrity = measurement of consistency regarding principles + applies to principles held versus principles applied + applies to beliefs versus actions + applies to not holding conflicting or contradictory principles or beliefs + implies showing loyalty to ones principles
They made nice idea maps for development into an essay.  After you, Alphonse...

Joe Maurone:  Also, thanks.  I am not much for "the dictionary says..." but in this case, your citation sheds light. 


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Post 7

Saturday, July 6, 2013 - 10:59pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, thanks for the comments. I have a couple of concerns about your description of loyalty.

First of all, I think there are different ways of thinking about virtues. In one way, virtue is seen as a measurement of how moral a person is. You described loyalty as "a measurement of the commitment to a value...". I think those are consistent.

The way that I was using virtue is different. Virtue is the application of a moral principle in pursuit of values. It's a kind of approach to making productive choices.

In this latter approach, the important part isn't a commitment to values or an emotional aspect. It is an application of a moral principle. The principle provides generalized knowledge that allows us to recognize values and act accordingly.

In this case, I suggested loyalty can be understood as a recognition of a fuller context of facts and values. By recognizing the larger context of values that a person contributes to your life, you can choose to act in a way that maintains those values despite short-sighted temptations.

The classic high-school scenario is that you are offered a place in the cool kids circle but you have to snub your existing friend. One could view loyalty as an irrational desire to stay with your old friend regardless of the costs. That would make loyalty contradict your self-interest. It would be valuing something outside of yourself regardless of the cost to your interests. This is often the view of loyalty, pitting it against your interests and showing an altruistic desire to stand by others regardless of the sacrifice.

Objectivists could accept that view of loyalty, as some do, and dismiss it as sacrificial and altruistic. But it's also possible to see that standing by your friend in the face of the temptation may be in your best interest after all. Altruists like to view all harmonious relationship as sacrificial in nature. We don't need to accept that premise.

So what would a self-interested view of loyalty look like? Why stand by your friend? It would be a recognition of the complete set of values he has to offer. It would be focusing on the genuine value of friendship. It might also include a recognition of the limited values being offered in return for the betrayal. Do you want friends who are willing to hurt others? Would that be a real friendship? Probably not.

The part I want to make clear here is that I'm not using loyalty to designate a strong commitment in the face of facts. The only way to make that seem rational is to generalize it to be a loyalty to your values, which sounds more and more like integrity.

So instead of trying to view it in terms of the strength of one's commitment, I suggest we look at it in terms of the reasoning behind the commitment. Loyalty, when used appropriately, is a process by which we broaden our scope of evaluation to see the full range of values or the larger context. Where a blind loyalty would diminish the scope of what you evaluate, encouraging you to ignore temptations, a rational form of loyalty would do the opposite. It would open your eyes and allow you to see more clearly.




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Post 8

Sunday, July 7, 2013 - 9:23amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

In my first post of this thread I considered the idea that loyalty was a measurement of the amount of commitment one showed (or had) to a value. And that it would be a virtue to the degree that it arose rationally out of a consistency with the person's deeper values. But as I look at that now, I'm uncomfortable calling something a virtue when it isn't an action. Rand said, “'Value' is that which one acts to gain and keep, 'virtue' is the action by which one gains and keeps it." I think she is right that to be a virtue it must be an action (and the action is one that is volitional). She also wrote, "Man has a single basic choice: to think or not, and that is the gauge of his virtue." From her formulation, to be a virtue requires expression as an action, born of choice, and that it be rational. My concept of loyalty as a measure of the amount of commitment shown to a value has merit, but not as a virtue, because I think Rand is right that about it being an action (not the measure of an aspect of some action).

But as I chewed on this, I shifted to exploring the idea of loyalty as an action that bridged ones values (in the abstract) to a specific concrete. In your example of a teenage boy who is tempted to join a group of the 'cool' kids, but at the expense of his friend, loyalty is the bridging of the core value of friendship to his old friend who best embodies those values, rather than the new kids who, upon examination, don't. When he stands 'loyal' to his old friend, he is acting more closely in accord with his basic values. He is being 'loyal' to those values as they are exemplified in his old friend, and it shows as an act.

I think that description of loyalty matches your description of "...the application of a moral principle in pursuit of values. It's a kind of approach to making productive choices." We seem to be on the same page when I describe a bridge between fundamental values and a concrete embodying those values and when you say, "I suggested loyalty can be understood as a recognition of a fuller context of facts and values. By recognizing the larger context of values that a person contributes to your life, you can choose to act in a way that maintains those values despite short-sighted temptations."
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So instead of trying to view [loyalty] in terms of the strength of one's commitment, I suggest we look at it in terms of the reasoning behind the commitment. Loyalty, when used appropriately, is a process by which we broaden our scope of evaluation to see the full range of values or the larger context. Where a blind loyalty would diminish the scope of what you evaluate, encouraging you to ignore temptations, a rational form of loyalty would do the opposite. It would open your eyes and allow you to see more clearly.
That's well put. It dovetails perfectly with Rand's requirements for virtues in general. It not only expands one's range of vision, but it also aids us in the integration of our values - binds us closer to that which is of value while helping keep us from that that would harm us. And from a psychological perspective, it becomes yet another example of the how we can increase our powers, our capacities, our experience of self-worth, by deepening and sharpening the introspection that should accompany our experience of the events of our lives.

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