| | Former Congressman Bob Schaffer (R) debates Congressman Mark Udall (D) on Meet the Press:
Using the link above, see the video on the right side for entertainment value (once video opens and runs 20-second commercial, choose the Schaffer-Udall debate from the option on the left). Here's a good part of the transcript (showing Brokaw fell for the bait-n-switch):
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REP. SCHAFFER: Well, that's the operative approach to the issue is that the details will come out later today, apparently. There's nothing to like about the notion that there is a $700 billion fix needed with respect to a collapse on Wall Street. Seven hundred billion dollars being raised by a government that does not have it essentially means the Federal Reserve has to turn on the printing press in order to create the money. That's about $10 to $11,000 per American household. It's essentially a tax. So you're correct. There--and what I said prior, previously, that you referenced stands. There is nothing to like about the bailout. It is necessary, I think, however, for the Congress to move forward in a way that reacts to the problems that Congress helped create and, in fact, led the way to creating, but to suggest that there's something to celebrate is exactly wrong.
MR. BROKAW: Congressman, Chris Cox, who is the chairman of the SEC, said it's not the dead hand of government.
REP. SCHAFFER: Right.
MR. BROKAW: In effect, he said it's the blind eye of government and he now apologizes for regulations as they were deregulated not working, he said that we went voluntarily and Wall Street just didn't respond to that. That put us in the jam that we're in now and all of that grew out of a Republican culture beginning with Ronald Reagan.
REP. SCHAFFER: Yeah.
MR. BROKAW: So isn't it time to reinstitute closer regulation of Wall Street and these financial institutions, especially in an era of warp speed and electronic trading, which is very hard to keep track of?
REP. SCHAFFER: In some, in some areas, perhaps, with respect to transparency, with respect to certain areas of accountability, of course. But not in a way that slows or constrains the ability of the, the economy to grow. You know, the--you can trace back, however, the--to 2005, with the legislation that was considered in 2005 and again in 2007 with respect to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, where there were attempts, actually led by Republicans in the Congress, to put more controls and to put more restraints on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Unfortunately, the vast majority of--including Congressman Udall--opposed those restrictions and those accountability provisions, and that probably more than anything else led to the immediate excesses that you began to see over the last three years.
MR. BROKAW: Congressman Udall, we've been checking the statistics in the Denver area. I'm quite familiar with it. In the second quarter of 2008, one in every 95 households in the Denver area were in foreclosure. The United States average was one in 171. Colorado ranked fifth in the nation statewide. A lot of that was a result of speculation for profit, people going in and hoping to make a quick buck and turn it around. Why should other taxpayers across the country have to now bail out those Colorado mortgage buyers who just did the irresponsible thing?
REP. MARK UDALL (D-CO): Tom, people are mad. People are upset. My calls are mixed between people who say no and people who say hell, no. This is a real crisis that we face. I would tell you that I think there's some principles that we have to pursue as we move towards a rescue plan not for Wall Street, this shouldn't be welfare for CEOs, but for Main Street. And that has to include no blank check, oversight, no golden parachutes. The taxpayers have to be at the front of the line. There has to be a return on their investment, if you will.
I want to correct the record. Congressman Schaffer just suggested that in 2005 I didn't support reform efforts for the GSCs, Freddie and Fannie. I did, in fact. I worked with Republicans to make those changes at that time. So I've been on the leading edge of saying that this is a real problem. I would tell you what we can't do, though, and that's return to the policies that Congressman Schaffer supported and supports today, which are tax breaks for CEOs, tax breaks for companies that offshore jobs, tax breaks for the wealthiest among us, like the oil companies and other large corporate interests.
REP. SCHAFFER: That's not true, Mark.
REP. UDALL: That's not going to get us to health in our financial system. The lack of regulation--Congressman Schaffer's right, we do need more regulation. But he supported a lessening of that regulation...
REP. SCHAFFER: That's not true either, Mark.
REP. UDALL: ...when he was here. So...
REP. SCHAFFER: Sorry.
REP. UDALL: And I, I think that's where we need to travel. Those are the kind of policies we need to put in place...
REP. SCHAFFER: The--you--what--you, you, you want...
REP. UDALL: ...and hopefully this legislation will meet that standard.
REP. SCHAFFER: Mark, Mark, you, you voted against several amendments. You voted against the Leach amendment, which, which would have--and this is in 2005, on this reform bill that you referenced, that would have established minimum capital levels for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. You voted no. That--and you were in the minority. You voted against requiring Fannie and Mae--Fannie and Freddie to sell--acquire--or acquire assets or liabilities if an asset or liability is deemed to be potentially system--a potential systemic risk to the housing market. You voted no on that. You voted no on an amendment that would have eliminated the ability of Fannie or Freddie Mae--Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac to borrow from the U.S. Treasury.
REP. UDALL: Bob, the overall package in 2005...
REP. SCHAFFER: You, you voted, you voted in 2007...
REP. UDALL: ...I supported. The point is...
REP. SCHAFFER: ...to, to further loosen Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's credit limits.
REP. UDALL: ...is we're where we are because--the point is, Bob, we're where we are because of policies of Congress in the '90s, in the early part of this decade.
REP. SCHAFFER: Mark, Mark, Under Secretary Robert Steel said--he issued a statement on your, your vote that, that the House had, "significantly weakened a new regulator for the firms." He said, "As a result of these amendments adopted on the floor, the department does not believe this bill adequately guards our financial system with the necessary oversight." You voted for that, Mark, and that is, that is something you're responsible for. And along with the rest of the Democrats in Congress who were in charge in 2007. And that leads directly to the crisis we're seeing on Wall Street today...
REP. UDALL: Bob, this, this problem--I'm...
REP. SCHAFFER: ...that is going to cost every Colorado family at least $10 to $11,000 per household as a function of a $700 billion bailout with money that does not exist that you guys need to go print.
REP. UDALL: I'll let you finish. This is the result of years and years of Republican leadership, or lack thereof, in Washington; tax cuts for those who don't need it, tax cuts for the oil companies...
REP. SCHAFFER: Mark, I've been out of Congress for six years. You're...
REP. UDALL: ...the Bush economic plan. The...
REP. SCHAFFER: ...you've been there for 10. Tell us what you've done.
REP. UDALL: ...the--Bob, let me, let me, let me finish. Let me finish.
REP. SCHAFFER: Finish by telling us what you've done.
REP. UDALL: You interrupted me. This is 10 years of the Bush administration...
REP. SCHAFFER: You've been there for 10 years.
REP. UDALL: ...of the Reagan revolution coming to its logical conclusion, which is the implosion of our...
REP. SCHAFFER: Listen, those of us who've been back home in the private sector working hard for the last six years...
REP. UDALL: Bob, let me, let me, let me finish. Let me finish.
REP. SCHAFFER: ...are sick and tired of these kinds of votes that make all of the rest of us pay.
REP. UDALL: Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish.
REP. SCHAFFER: It is a, it is a national tragedy, and there is nothing to like about it.
REP. UDALL: Let me finish. Let, let me finish.
MR. BROKAW: But Congressman, it has been your party, in all fairness, that has been in charge for the most part of the last eight years, and it has run up record deficits of now $500 billion. The fact of the matter is that the economy in the next year probably won't grow very much at all. The man who's at the head of your ticket, John McCain, says that he can balance the budget with spending cuts alone. He talks about earmarks that represent only about $18 billion.
REP. SCHAFFER: Right.
MR. BROKAW: Based on your own experience during this campaign, aren't the American people looking for more candor than that? Is that a promise that he can fulfill, in your judgment?
REP. SCHAFFER: They're looking for candor, and I'm--and Senator McCain's certainly providing, providing. You're correct that under Republican leadership, deficits grew, and I think it has to--mainly do as a function of war. However, I was in Congress for six years. I was there from--I got elected 1996, I left in 2002. During those years, we did balance the budget. In fact, we did it four years ahead of schedule, and we did it by trimming the rate of growth in spending and specific cuts, but more than anything else, the tax cuts, which applied to middle class households and families that we helped pushed forward--Mark Udall likes to talk about it as tax cuts for the rich--for all of the homeowners at home who are middle class people, congratulations, you're rich under that definition--but we actually grew the economy faster than had been projected, we grew--we actually increased the amount of revenue coming to the federal government while we were slowing down the rate of growth in spending and reforming on a, on the regulatory side, welfare reform, for example, other reforms within the Congress that helped unleash the productivity of the economy. We did balance the budget four years ahead of schedule, and that allowed us to start talking about surpluses to help add years to the solvency of Social Security and Medicare. So I was there during the times when we actually delivered on what we promised...
MR. BROKAW: That was then, but now...
REP. SCHAFFER: ...and we need to do that again.
MR. BROKAW: That was then, and now is now.
REP. SCHAFFER: Well, good. Well, listen. I'm not running--I'm not running--I'm not going to carry the water for every bad decision Republicans and Democrats have made. Look, there's lots of people in Washington who can't make a prudent decision or make a tough call on what's really a priority for the country. But when I was there, I did. I've been back in the private sector paying these taxes and generating revenue for the country and helping to create jobs, and when I come back to Washington, I'll take all that experience with me and do it in a way that Mark, you never did in the 10 years you've been there.
REP. UDALL: That's a great narrative, but go back to 2002. You cast votes for a war. You cast votes for tax cuts for the wealthy. You cast votes against...
REP. SCHAFFER: You proposed votes against the declaration of war, Mark.
REP. UDALL: Bob, I'm letting you get your points in, let me get my points in.
REP. SCHAFFER: Well, be accurate, though.
REP. UDALL: You need to be accurate. You cast votes against an energy policy set of proposals that would have us much closer to being energy independent today.
REP. SCHAFFER: I cast votes in favor of an energy policy.
REP. UDALL: Let me finish. For you to sit here and suggest that somehow you're immune from any of the criticism or any of the blame for the straits we find ourselves in is laughable. The policies of the Bush...
REP. SCHAFFER: Mark, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac didn't crash six years ago.
REP. UDALL: Bob, let me finish. The...
REP. SCHAFFER: They crashed this year, where you were in charge.
REP. UDALL: Let me finish. The policies you support have led us to the day that we are experiencing today.
REP. SCHAFFER: Absolutely not true.
REP. UDALL: The financial system meltdown...
REP. SCHAFFER: You...
REP. UDALL: ...middle class being choked, no energy policy, a war with no end...
REP. SCHAFFER: You know, Mark...
REP. UDALL: ...CEOs getting welfare, this is a direct...
REP. SCHAFFER: ...I proposed, I proposed we debate...
REP. UDALL: ...example and the direct result of what you did and what you supported when you were in Congress.
REP. SCHAFFER: ...I proposed back home that we debate all of these topics...
REP. UDALL: We have been debating these topics all over the state of Colorado.
REP. SCHAFFER: ...in an open format, you rejected, you rejected the opportunity to debate these issues.
REP. UDALL: We're having a debate today. We...
REP. SCHAFFER: Yeah.
REP. UDALL: This is our ninth debate, Bob. We're going to...
REP. SCHAFFER: And it's not going particularly well for you, because you can't rely on facts...
REP. UDALL: ...we're going to have eight more debates.
REP. SCHAFFER: ...in order to support your conclusion.
REP. UDALL: Well, I can rely on fact.
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Yeah, right!
Ed
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