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Post 80

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 10:57pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy:
Steve,
Are you considering that it can be morally wrong without being a violation of individual rights? Otherwise, you are collapsing all of morality to law
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Exactly.






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Post 81

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 11:23pmSanction this postReply
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Mike:

"Goods is goods, you don't get to assign special rules for what you highly value which others don't happen to value as highly. I still think there's some sort of marketing thing going on to drive up prices. "Educating the masses" so to speak. Make people feel "refined" and "classy" perhaps they'll be willing to pay a lot more for your goods."

 

I had to laugh at that. Art is unique, and differs significantly from "goods". A painting for example is one of kind, has no utilitarian use, and for some artists, comes from sacred activity, involving their whole being: mind, senses, and passion for existence. It is also not something that is scientifically derived, nor created by vote, nor by conferences. Nor by sales. It is not a question of me assigning special rules, art has a specific nature, I didn't invent it. ;)

 

An artist that views their work as goods is a hack. A collector that views his collection as goods is a speculator.

 

 "I still think there's some sort of marketing thing going on to drive up prices. "Educating the masses" so to speak. Make people feel "refined" and "classy" perhaps they'll be willing to pay a lot more for your goods."

 

Do you think that calling someone "white trash" is a good marketing device??? But,  I would hate to make you feel refined and classy if you don't already feel that way.

Michael



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Post 82

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 11:32pmSanction this postReply
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I am also taking a cue from Steve W., I will be outta here, probably for awhile...I think Ed has understood the hint...:)

BTW, I have also been pretty much blessing everyone here with little atlases...even when I completely disagreed...but I enjoyed everyone's contributions and expressions--I got to know some of you much better than I had before.

Cheers,

...and, Ed, good luck in your writing.

Michael


Post 83

Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 12:07amSanction this postReply
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    "I got to know some of you much better than I had before."
As the Cowardly Lion said, "Ain't it the truth!"

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Post 84

Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 12:49amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Newberry said to Ed in post #18, "you have no moral right to write, draw, compose, or otherwise edit another’s work." And, "I am advising you that appropreiation is not the way to be an artist."

My reply in post #20 was, "I disagree with Mr. Newberry. Ed didn't "write, draw, compose, or otherwise edit another’s work" - not in the sense that would be morally contravened. He was extremely clear in giving credit and praise for the original work and in his intent to show a difference he clearly indicating as his and not the artists. He never claimed credit for what wasn't his, he didn't take from another what didn't belong to him and he didn't deface the work of another out of malice or to be a vandal. Which made the display of those two vandalized paintings inappropriate to the context."

In post #25 Mr. Newberry is "...making clear that appropriation is neither moral or mentally helpful..." He is still calling it appropriation. Which is why I said, in post #26, "Ed's efforts did not make it for me as art, they also did not register as a violation of individual rights. "Appropriation" means to take as one's own - as in theft, as in taking credit by not revealing that it was written by another. That is where your criticism is overly harsh. Why call Ed a thief? He just posted a type of composition that would never work for the reason you eloquently described. Without some degree of intent to steal, it isn't proper to chastise in the terms you used.
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I think I see where things went awry. Mr. Newberry was using language appropriate for discussing art - and that IS what we were discussing. But there were also claims of what constitutes moral transgression and that requires more precise language - language that is geared more to a fine, linear parsing of meaning, rather than the rich, evocative language of passion, spirit and nuances of feeling.

When he said, "If you destroy art, you have no business among the living.", there wasn't anything in that context to evoke the poetic image of life as "active or thriving; vigorous; strong." I don't know him or his writing style and had no clue that is what he meant. You know, if someone saw the following statement (and no context), "If you destroy a Koran, you have no business among the living.", one would understand that as threat that could lead to a beheading!

I thought I was reading an outburst of anger leading to a strong statement (but not a threat - just a way of saying someone isn't worthy at the lowest of levels). I'm very glad to find out he meant, "...you have no business among the strong, the vigorous, and most active."

So, the whole time it was about words. I have no problems with strong feelings about art, or about philosophy... I certainly have strong feelings about being clear in what one writes, and doubly so when it is reasonable to see a set of words wrongly impugning someone's moral character.
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Michael, our disagreements appear to be more in our style of writing, and the way we are using words. I am still saying that your words weren't what they should have been in talking to Ed - not about art, but about morals. But this feels like it has been about 10 times as long a thread as it should have been - mark that up to one of the ways passion can get in your way :-)



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