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Post 60

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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"When you buy art you are a guardian of that work, which shows a decent sense of life, morality, and class."

When you buy something it becomes your property. Insofar as you value your property, you guard it. When you no longer value it you can dispose of it as you please, sell it, give it to goodwill, whatever. The value the artist/seller placed on it was whatever he sold it for. No more. Else the transaction would never have taken place. Simple economics.

"If you destroy art, you have no business among the living."

Excuse me? These are the words of a psychopath.

"You remind me of someone in a bar that wants to pick a fight to fight, but for no reason."

You call me "white trash" then say this? You've totally lost your grip on reality.

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Post 61

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 2:06pmSanction this postReply
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Michael writes:
    "I think you pretty much understand that somehow a remodling should be sensitive to theme/style/feeling of the house or building, no?",
Yes, of course. However, even with these best intentions, there are not a high percentage of architects that could successfully pull off a major renovation of a Wright structure while still being true to its spirit. This is because much of what makes Wright's works so great, at least to most people - including most architects, are intangibles, and without a deep affinity for his approach, the new work doesn't integrate properly into the whole. And this results in the greatest crime of all, where the dynamic tension between the original and the new work destroys the serenity and repose.

And speaking of the Guggenheim Museum, it has been subjected to various controversial renovations over the years, but it has recently had a complete restoration. In the process there was a huge debate as to what color it should be painted. Wright had specified, and the museum was originally painted a warm buff (slightly yellowish) color but it had been changed to a cool off-white over the years by others. Now, anyone who knows anything about Wright would realize that he would be violently opposed to the white and would have gone down swinging, fighting for the proper color.* So what reason is given by the president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy for not restoring the intended color?
    "It’s more what people are used to now. I think it would be very startling to change the color of the Guggenheim right now."
Michael, if you want to get pissed off at somebody, leave poor Ed alone and go after these !@#$%^! Oh, we wouldn't want to startle anyone. There might be a lawsuit! And while we're at it, let's get rid of that piece of crap they installed on the roof! And the streetlights too, damn it! Talk about philistines!


Getting back to the issue at hand, I see this discussion polarized by two issues: principle and passion. Regarding the first, it seems clear to me that Michael is strongly defending the integrity of the creative act as a matter of principle. And in principle, isn't this something that we all support? Michael is passionate in defending the idea of creativity precisely because it is so important to him and is such an integral part of his work. I cannot agree with Mike Erickson that passion, or what he calls "sensitivity", is inversely proportional to the inspirational quality of an individual's work. There may well be a lot of whining wanna-bees in the world, but that has nothing to do with true artists maintaining their passion for life and their work and being willing to defend it. (See the book recommendation below for a good example.)

Regarding passion, the intensity we feel towards things is certainly dependent upon their quality. Few people get riled up about people remodeling the house down the street because there is not much worth preserving in most of them to begin with. The same is true for a velvet painting. I might be an asshole for painting a flamingo on the painting (but thankfully, just "a bit" of an asshole! ;-)), but no more so than the fellow who paints their entire house robin's egg blue or sunflower yellow, to name but two in my neighborhood. These houses are an eyesore because they look like alien objects that have no relationship to their surroundings and are not just unresponsive to the site and landscape but stand in contradistinction to them. And yet, I'm much more offended by what has been done to the Guggenheim, 3,000 miles away than I am to these houses, because the Guggenheim is so much more worthy of my passion than these little pokes-in-the-eye down the street.

Michael, while I do get your message, I think you have overreacted a bit to Ed's efforts here. As others have said, I also see his endeavor (and Ed, correct me if I'm wrong) as more of an intellectual training exercise rather than as an attempt to appropriate the creative enterprise of another. If we are going to move into a new creative arena, we all must start somewhere. It is difficult, if not impossible, for most people to create tabula rasa. (I suspect that even Mozart required some initial training.) This is why new painters spend time in museums copying the works of great masters as they hone their skills in preparation for the time when they can approach a blank canvas on their own terms. Giving Ed the benefit of the doubt, which I think he deserves, I see nothing wrong with his attempts to begin with a poem by another and rework it. We can all independently judge his efforts on their own merit while the original work remains intact and undefaced. If he were so inclined to continue, projects like this might eventually lead to the production of wholly creative new works. However, the response received here is the sort of thing that causes most people to abandon their pursuits forever. There are a lot of good points being made in this discussion which would be considerably more instructive if we could dial down the rancor. (Said the guy who is swearing at the New York Landmarks Conservancy. :-))

Regards,
--
Jeff


* If you want an interesting read and would like to get some insight into Wright's passion and his struggle for the integrity of his work, I can highly recommend the book The Guggenheim Correspondence compiled by Bruce Brooks Pfeiffer. This has Wright's correspondence during the fifteen year period that it took to get the museum built. If you are not very familiar with Wright other than the image in the popular press, this is a good place to start to get a deeper understanding of the man.

(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 1/19, 2:10pm)


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Post 62

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Newberry wrote, "...just write you own work. Let me know when you get this thought so I don't have to do variations on a repeated theme."

I understand and sympathize with that... on the aesthetic level. He doesn't seem to grasp that there are two levels in this... criticizing something aesthetically and calling someone a violator of individual rights - those are different things. I agree with one and not the other.

He said, "Freedom of impulses is what drives imagination and creativity. But that is only a part of the process. He left out the part about directing the impulse (control) - that this is a flow where the subconscious generates creative impulses and the conscious mind facilitates their application. Art without that control would be like the spontaneous vomit from a drunk. Just as philosophical discourse or any form of writing is controlled application of creative, subconscious impulses.

Mr. Newberry goes on to say, "...you don't confiscate the spirit of another person or art work." I am trying to distinguish between the threat to life and property inherent in the violation of individual rights. And it turns out that I may well have very right to make this distinction since Mr. Newberry appears to be in favor of killing people (or at the least, wishing them dead) if they don't adhere to his ideas regarding a sacredness of art. What else might one infer from his saying, "If you destroy art, you have no business among the living."

Making ad hominem arguments, name calling, questioning my psychological state, questioning whether or not I'm a psychologist... those are poor substitutes for reason and good reason to avoid this implied claim that emotional responses from an artist are somehow sacred cows imbued with special consideration that rise above reason, objective moral standards, political commonsense or valid law.

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Post 63

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,
Are you considering that it can be morally wrong without being a violation of individual rights? Otherwise, you are collapsing all of morality to law.


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Post 64

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

"I cannot agree with Mike Erickson that passion, or what he calls "sensitivity", is inversely proportional to the inspirational quality of an individual's work."

Good point. I should not have said "to the extent that". I have corrected that post to say: "Artists who do not inspire are often the most "sensitive".

Post 65

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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So, Mike, you don't think much of Newberry's work, and you think he is overly sensitive, and neurotic as a result. None of that is an argument.

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Post 66

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy,

You asked, "Are you considering that it can be morally wrong without being a violation of individual rights?"

Yes. I believe that there are a very large number of acts that are immoral without violating individual rights. For example, abusing drugs to the extent that I harm my life would be an example of an immoral act that doesn't violate anyone's rights. Or, if someone on this forum tells you a lie - that is immoral, but if it isn't part of a fraud to take property of yours, it isn't a violation of individual rights.

Morality is the wider category from whence ethical rights arise. Did I write something that isn't aligned with that?

This long, and contentious thread, from my perspective, arose out of a failure to use words that recognize just that distinction. To call someone a thief who had not stolen anything. Ed was careful to delineate what was his and what was not - criticize the result, criticize the approach, and one might criticize what they think his motivation was (if they don't care about psychologizing), but we shouldn't use words sloppily when discussing the character of another.


(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 1/19, 4:05pm)


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Post 67

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 4:15pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,
You chastised Newberry for  "calling someone a violator of individual rights." This is in your first authored statement, post 62. Unless I'm mistaken, you are referring to his use of the term, "theft." As I argued, there can be legal theft, as in plagiarism.
If calling Ed's "revision," which was put forth as a work of art, theft, Newberry wasn't necessarily accusing him of being "a violator of individual rights." That's my point against what you said.

(Edited by Mindy Newton on 1/19, 4:17pm)


Post 68

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 4:47pmSanction this postReply
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There is a 'personal' morality, and a 'social' morality - properly, the latter is in consistency with the former, which is rational absolutist... but it need not be so if the former is nonrational [eg. valuing others as of greater importance than self]...

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Post 69

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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So, Mindy, are you lecturing me? Have you been paying attention?

As it happens, I like much of Newberry's work. I have spoken with him in the past about one piece that I particularly like. I have perused his website several times but I admit I have not done so lately. This present dust up involves his unfair treatment of Ed, totally uncalled for in my opinion, and his overinflated sense of "special rights" with respect to artistic output. Goods is goods, you don't get to assign special rules for what you highly value which others don't happen to value as highly. I still think there's some sort of marketing thing going on to drive up prices. "Educating the masses" so to speak. Make people feel "refined" and "classy" perhaps they'll be willing to pay a lot more for your goods. As opposed to being white trash. And no, I don't thing Newberry is particularly sensitive or neurotic. He's simply being an asshole.

So, it seems you are mistaken on all points. But, as I've observed, that seems to be your habit. Perhaps you should find a mentor. I suggest Ted. You won't find a better linguist or logician.

Post 70

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 5:07pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Jeff. The photo is very instructive. I have always thought there was something off, cold, about that building. It looks much better in the intended color.

Post 71

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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Well, Mike, I could do you a lot of good, but I don't think I would find it worth my while. I'd love a mentor, if a suitable person could be found.

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Post 72

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy, I'm surprised we aren't on the same page here. I would agree that plagiarism is a kind of theft - which may or may not involve a violation of individual rights.

But I think I was very clear about saying that Ed did NOT take credit for the work of another. He was clear about what was his and what was not. How can anyone plagiarize anyone else while not taking credit for their work? It wasn't plagiarism - just as any post of mine where I quote you (showing what you said, and making it distinct from what I write) would not be plagiarism.

My first post on this thread wasn't #62, but #20, where I said, "I disagree with Mr. Newberry. Ed didn't "write, draw, compose, or otherwise edit another’s work" - not in the sense that would be morally contravened. He was extremely clear in giving credit and praise for the original work and in his intent to show a difference he clearly indicating as his and not the artists. He never claimed credit for what wasn't his..."

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Post 73

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,
If Ed had only openly criticized Desiderata, there would be no problem. He presumed to produce a poem, his "revision" of Desiderata. Note that I used plagiarism as an example of theft that isn't an initiation of force. I did not say that Ed had plagiarized Erhmann.
You said Ed hadn't edited the work, but that is exactly what he did. He wrote his thoughts into the poem, and called the result an improved poem! Damnable presumption, I repeat.
He deserves the disdain of artists and reasoning individuals. If values, if holding values is important, art that expresses one's values deserves deep respect. To treat a good poem as Ed did is disgusting. He doesn't appreciate Desiderata. He doesn't understand Desiderata, he doesn't understand poetry, and, I'll wager, he will never, ever be a poet. Pretensions are the very opposite of the soul of an artist.


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Post 74

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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So, Mindy, why don't you quit beating around the bush, and tell us what you really think of what Ed did here?

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Post 75

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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You know, Mindy, each time you jump into my blog here to tell us (again) how stupid or wrong-spirited I am, I'm going to remind you about how you won't put your money where your mouth is about a rigorous moral evaluation of our posts in the epistemology thread -- as you might be scared to be proved morally inferior. There are two main ways folks hang on to error (like you did) in the face of answers (like I gave):

************************
1) too little intelligence

or

2) too much evil (evasion)
************************

Now, you are a pretty intelligent woman, Mindy -- and that raises the stakes on any evaluation of your behavior. It makes it more likely that -- if you hold onto errors in the face of answers -- that you might not have integrity. Like I said, Mindy, you just let me know if you want to revive that thread and morally analyze it together.

I have avoided scrutinizing you out of a sense of common respect and benevolence. You, however, have not responded in kind -- but just the opposite. I tried to avoid you, but you found my blog and you brought your soapbox in here -- together with your past, petty, pitiful and snake-like appeal to collectivism (as when you called on the folks here at RoR to shun me). Ellsworth Toohey would do something like that.

I never said that you were a troll, I said I had my doubts and I chose to withdraw from our discussion. Since then, you've removed my doubts. I guess I should say: thank you.

Ed

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Post 76

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,
Lol, you have no idea of the self-restraint I have been exercising, and continue to exercise in the matter. Don't want to shock you polemical neophytes!

(Edited by Mindy Newton on 1/19, 8:42pm)


Post 77

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 10:33pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

Your post #61 was superb.

Perhaps Steve W. will recognise that of the two professional artist here, we, have very strong opinions about aesthetic crimes.

"And this results in the greatest crime of all, where the dynamic tension between the original and the new work destroys the serenity and repose."

Michael



Post 78

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Mindy,

I think we are nearing the end of this string. It would be reasonable to disagree on whether or not Ed "edited" the poem versus putting his little dabs at the end of various lines. And it really doesn't matter to me which is the more accurate statement. I just wanted to be clear that Ed didn't steal, didn't violate rights, and didn't plagiarize.

You said, "He deserves the disdain of artists and reasoning individuals... To treat a good poem as Ed did is disgusting... He doesn't appreciate Desiderata. He doesn't understand Desiderata, he doesn't understand poetry..." That is aesthetic critique of Ed's work and his merit as a poet, and well spiced with your emotional reaction to the issue - which I see as just fine - that is, you aren't accusing him of moral failure of the sort I was discussing (theft, plagiarism, violating rights, etc.) - but rather what you see as damned bad taste and a lack of understanding and appreciation of poetry.

I'm now going to ride off into the sunset, my work here is done. (Besides, discretion may be the better part of valor when facing that shock and awe that your restraint has saved this polemical neophyte from enduring :-)



Post 79

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
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Steve W: "He doesn't seem to grasp that there are two levels in this... criticizing something aesthetically and calling someone a violator of individual rights - those are different things. I agree with one and not the other."

Steve,

This is a bit in your own mind. I haven't spoken of individual rights or crimes in the normal sense of the word. I qualified every statement about theft and appropriation in regards to spirit.  I could have used "moral transgression"...and if you still have trouble with this, get out the dictionary and look for the meanings I intended instead of picking the ones that serves your slant.

This is why I gave you bad time about being a psychologist, becasue I would assume you understood levels of our total being...not just the thinking.

What else might one infer from his saying, "If you destroy art, you have no business among the living."
 
Again,  two of the dictionary definitions for "living" : active or thriving; vigorous; strong...a particular manner, state, or status of life.

People who destroy art...the Taliban, nutters with acid in museums, etc.  are not normal--people who destroy art destroy their own humanity, i.e. have no business among the living.

Michael





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