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Post 20

Thursday, August 6, 2009 - 1:36amSanction this postReply
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At any moment, an entity could change it's mind and begin to value an alternative over the other (i.e., "choose otherwise")
Based on what? A person changes his mind in response to new evidence, new knowledge, new awareness. He doesn't change it for no reason. According to your theory, I could change my mind in the next instant and begin to value subjectivism over objectivism, socialism over capitalism, altruism over egoism, etc., for no reason whatsoever. But this is absurd. No one behaves this way. If this is your defense of free will, then I rest my case.
But think about the choices lower animals make. Many of them are predictable. We might even say that they are pre-determined. The "choice" of beavers to make a dams -- and to make the entrance of the dams open up underwater (every single time) -- is pre-determined; it is predictable.

Human choice isn't; so it isn't.
Animal behavior is not entirely predictable, but it is more predictable than human behavior, because human beings are more complex mentally and psychologically than animals. Still, human behavior is, to a large extent, predictable. I can predict, for example, that traffic will almost always stop at a red light and go at a green light -- that stores will for the most part open when they say they will, that people will get up and go to work more or less at the same time every day, etc.. We can even predict how people will vote. The extent of Obama's victory was predicted quite accurately by the betting polls.

On the other hand, animal behavior can sometimes be quite erratic and unpredictable. Elephants have occasionally rebelled against their handlers and trampled them to death; previously docile tigers have attacked their trainers and mauled them unexpectedly.

The fact that an animal's or human being's behavior is (pre)determined does not mean that we can predict it with infallible certainty, because we are not omniscient and cannot know all of the factors affecting it. "(Pre)determined" does not mean "perfectly predictable."

- Bill

Post 21

Thursday, August 6, 2009 - 6:38pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Based on what? A person changes his mind in response to new evidence, new knowledge, new awareness. He doesn't change it for no reason. According to your theory, I could change my mind in the next instant and begin to value subjectivism over objectivism, socialism over capitalism, altruism over egoism, etc., for no reason whatsoever. But this is absurd.

You're right that it's absurd, but I didn't say that. I did, however, give an example -- e.g., the 'memory lapse' -- wherein one would choose otherwise based on the new consciousness of old knowledge.

You should give me more credit, Bill.

Ed


Post 22

Thursday, August 6, 2009 - 7:27pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

But if that's the case, then how is what you said an expression or defense of free will?

Post 23

Friday, August 7, 2009 - 8:10amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I'm not talking about 'Free Will' in the sense of a 'Kantian Absolute' -- a will that is even free of the person in whom it resides (a "rogue" will, or whatever). Instead, when I say free will, I mean a will that is "controlled" by the person (in whom it resides). The person is in charge of their will, but it is still a free will in the sense that other people and things don't 'determine' it.

Ed


Post 24

Friday, August 7, 2009 - 6:08pmSanction this postReply
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But I thought you just acknowledged that new evidence, knowledge or awareness could determine it.

- Bill

Post 25

Saturday, August 8, 2009 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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I just want to quickly interject and register my opposition to calling this phenomenon "Value/Will Determinism." I don't think it's determinism at all.

There are two opposing views here: determinism and free will (i.e., volition). Determinism holds that a person's actions are caused by something entirely outside of that person's conscious control. For example: Freud's determinism states that a person's actions are caused by primal instincts and unconscious traumas. Another example: Genetic determinism states that a person's actions are caused by that person's DNA. Neither of these holds that a person's actions are caused by that which is available to a person's conscious awareness or control. A human being is merely a helpless pawn at the mercy of uncontrollable forces. Therefore, that person can't properly be held fully responsible for whatever he does or doesn't do.

The reason why the notion that a person's actions are caused by a person's values is NOT determinism is because those values are chosen by that person in the first place. They're also able to be changed--though in some cases only with a lot of mental effort and therapeutic assistance--by the person in question. A person's value scale isn't physical or mystical. It's the result of the things that person has CONSCIOUSLY accepted or rejected before in his life. And as I already said, those things ARE able to be amended, unlike instincts or genes. So I place this wholly in the "free will" category.

One other thing: I'm no zoologist, Bill, but I don't think giraffes eat lions (post 18). I know that's just a simple mistake, but it's funny.

(Edited by Jon Trager on 8/08, 11:08am)


Post 26

Saturday, August 8, 2009 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
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Jon wrote,
One other thing: I'm no zoologist, Bill, but I don't think giraffes eat lions (post 18). I know that's just a simple mistake, but it's funny.
Jeez! Now you tell me! The darn post is too old to correct. So my zoological faux pas -- or is that foe paw ;-) -- is now immortalized in cyberspace. Oh, the agony of it all!

Seriously, it is pretty funny. I'm surprised no one else caught it or commented on it!

Thanks, Jon! It's one thing to transpose letters -- a simple mistake due to the ever aging brain; it's another to transpose concepts. At least I don't have to worry about transposing A is A! :)

- Bill

Post 27

Saturday, August 8, 2009 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I said:
The person is in charge of their will, but it is still a free will in the sense that other people and things don't 'determine' it.

So you said:
But I thought you just acknowledged that new evidence, knowledge or awareness could determine it.
And, like Jon Trager said, it boils down to where you place the locus of control. In my line of reasoning, if you have a memory lapse and then suddenly remember a value, then you change your mind (you 'choose differently'). Your memories are part of you. In your line of reasoning, your memories aren't part of you or your will but are in opposition to you or your otherwise-free will -- remembered values will force you to choose some things over others.

It all boils down to where you place memories and values: (1) as part of you or (2) "non-you."

Freud pitted the Id and SuperEgo against the Ego, saying that they will force the Ego to make choices that it wouldn't if it were more free (of the 'influences' of Id and SuperEgo). You pit memory and value "against" the person. In that line of reasoning, a choice that was based on values isn't a free choice -- but that is just a garbled re-construction of what a free will actually is (rather than a will free of all interest -- a totally disinterested will, which is an anti-concept).

Ed 

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/08, 10:17pm)


Post 28

Sunday, August 9, 2009 - 10:10pmSanction this postReply
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Ed wrote,
In your line of reasoning, your memories aren't part of you or your will but are in opposition to you or your otherwise-free will -- remembered values will force you to choose some things over others.
No, that's not my position. Values don't "force" you to choose some things over others; they motivate you to choose some things over others. To say that they "force" you says that they cause you to choose in opposition to your values. For instance, I choose to keep my money, but a gunman "forces" me to surrender it. In forcing me to surrender it, he is causing me to act against my values, not in accordance with them.
It all boils down to where you place memories and values: (1) as part of you or (2) "non-you."
Clearly, as part of you.

- Bill

Post 29

Monday, August 10, 2009 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

It seems to me that you would agree with me that folks are self-determined. Is that the case?

If so, then much of this discussion is water under the bridge.

Ed



Post 30

Monday, August 10, 2009 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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Ed wrote,
It seems to me that you would agree with me that folks are self-determined. Is that the case?

If so, then much of this discussion is water under the bridge.
That's funny, I thought it was water over the damn.

Seriously, I do think that folks are self-determined in the sense that their choices are determined by their motivations, which are part of themselves.

What I question is that they could have chosen differently, given a particular motivation, which is what I thought you were claiming. I do agree that they could have chosen differently if their motivations were different.

- Bill



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