About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Sunday, March 4, 2012 - 6:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
According to the way that my laws are worded, it would appear that at least prions (cause of Mad Cow disease) -- and possibly viruses -- are not alive. This is problematic as I believe that highly-lauded textbooks maintain that prions and viruses are forms of life.

Ed


Post 1

Sunday, March 4, 2012 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

You are describing a subset of life.

A most basic definition may be: "an entity that undergoes reproduction". Reproduction: "a process where an entity is copied resulting in a new entity that is similar yet not necessarily exactly the same as the original".

Polymers may be the most basic form of life. DNA and RNA are polymers.

I'm sure there are polymers that grow in non H20 liquids. There are probably polymers that grow in gases and maybe even plasmas.

Post 2

Sunday, March 4, 2012 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Well, now that I look at your laws 2-4, they satisfy me. Law 1 I do not like, I'm sure there can be life without H20.

As for the space law, might I expand that to: life requires material. Material has mass, volume, temperature, and pressure requirements in order to maintain function in the life form. Various functionality requires various materials and structures. More complex and capable sussinct life forms require more material.

Post 3

Monday, March 5, 2012 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

Good points. Taking note, I have to amend the water law and re-name it:

1) The medium law
Life requires a malleable medium in which the living takes place. The medium will either be water, or it will serve the function that water serves for every last one of the life forms recorded on planet earth.

Is that better?

Ed

p.s. I have a problem calling DNA "life." That was G. Stolyarov's argument against abortion several years ago (that the DNA, even if only the DNA of a zygote, was already an independent life form).


Post 4

Monday, March 5, 2012 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

Yes, I do like that better.

tangent -- abortion -- not this again! --

Have you seen my argument that a mother should be able to remove a developing human from her body based on the mother's property rights over her own body?

I do not think that others should decide for the woman what birth/removal process is best and most safe for her. Whichever process it is, the process will act upon her body. Any process should be legal because she gets to do what she wants with her own body. Some processes may be viewed as despicable and cursed upon by many, but not criminal.

After the developing human is outside of the woman, its a completely different story. If the being can live on its own, or if anyone is willing to adopt, then let it be.

-- yikes! --
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 3/05, 7:20pm)


Post 5

Monday, March 5, 2012 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Irony, I believe fully that a woman has sole dominion over what she allows or disallows to grow inside of her and I am adopted. Lol

Post 6

Thursday, March 8, 2012 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

Have you seen my argument that a mother should be able to remove a developing human from her body ...
I think I remember it, but isn't it susceptible to the criticism that: If DNA is a deal-maker (if DNA = life), then is it simply because the mother has more DNA than the fetus -- that she can claim a right against it? If DNA is life, but it always requires the extra baggage of a fully-formed organism to encompass it -- then how come you can't reduce the equation down to:

[fully-formed organisms are life]

?

Ed


Post 7

Thursday, March 8, 2012 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Claim a right against it? The mother is not saying her rights have been infringed.

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Friday, March 9, 2012 - 1:24amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Have you seen my argument that a mother should be able to remove a developing human from her body?
That would be better argued by using the word 'fetus' rather than 'human.'

To me, it is a question of when individual rights attach. The argument that is strongest is that individual rights cannot attach until there is an individual - till birth.

When people argue otherwise they have three problems. First, is the argument that there can be such a thing as a natural right to violate a natural right (that a woman's rights to her body could result in violation of the 'rights' of the unborn') - that would logically invalidate the concept of rights. Period.

Second, is the confusion regarding potential human being versus actual human being. As soon as someone makes the argument of potentiality they are admitting that the zygote or fetus is not an actual human being.

Third, is the issue of where natural rights come from. Those who argue from a religious point of view can claim they are from God and then they can assign them anywhere to anything at anytime - mysticism isn't limited by logic or reason. But if a person wants to use reason and logic to derive natural rights from human nature, they won't be able to do so in a way that establishes those rights attaching at any point prior to birth... or at the earliest, prior to when the fetus could live independent of the mother and then the rights wouldn't fully attach till the separation.
--------------------

A most basic definition [of life] may be: "an entity that undergoes reproduction". Reproduction: "a process where an entity is copied resulting in a new entity that is similar yet not necessarily exactly the same as the original".
If I sit down and type [reproduce] the same sequence of letters over and over they aren't alive unless there is some causal property in the letters that are causing me to do the typing. What I'm saying is that the reproduction must be self-initiated. And it can be identical. Bacteria don't use sexual reproduction and therefore don't produce 'offspring' that differ slightly.

Dawkins, in Extended Phenotypes, would say you are talking about "Replicators" - which he defined as "anything in the universe of which copies are made." Then he made distinctions between active and passive replicators. Me, I don't think it makes sense to talk about something as a replicator if it has no part in causing the replication.

Dawkins also talked about dead-end replicators and germ-line replicators, and about the properties of a replicator including longevity, fecundity and fidelity.

He finally got to what he called the "optimon" - an active germ-line replicator that induces it's vehicle to replicate itself in way that the new vehicle(s) contains high fidelity germ-line replicators. (Hence, his theory of the Selfish Gene that uses it's container to leverage itself into the next generation.) That replicator-vehicle description is the description of the properties of a class of entities that are THE required properties for evolution to occur (be the evolution cultural or biological or even some entirely different kind of entity).
----------------

But, going back to the definition of life: I'm remembering Rand's definition of life as a process of self-generated, self-sustaining action. Notice that it is a process, not an entity and notice that any given entity may or may not reproduce. Great numbers of living entities will die without reproducing... happens every minute of every day.


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.