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Post 40

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Because once a government has started impinging upon my freedoms, rather than defending them, the individuals in that government have demonstrated that they consider themselves to have a moral right to control me through the use of force. The individuals in that government will also have demonstrated a willingness to impinge upon freedom in ways that do cause unhappiness (i.e. some individuals in the community will have an increased sense of security and happiness through ownership of arms). Therefore I cannot predict when that government will choose to impinge upon my freedoms in a way that causes me unhappiness.

In addition, I am outraged that someone considers themselves to have the right to control me without my permission - regardless of whether their decision would make me happier. I have the ability to choose (or create) a community that voluntarilly lives under a set of standards more intrusive than laws banning the initiation of force.

On reflection, perhapes I have demonstrated that government enforced gun control does cause me unhappiness, so my premise was incorrect.

If I had the ability to choose to live in a community with gun control or a community without, then living in the community with gun control would make me happier. Without the ability to choose however, I suffer unhappiness from imposed gun control.


Post 41

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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Jordan, I glanced through your reference and don't understand the dichotomy between freedom and happiness that you draw. The paper says that people seem to be happier when they have fewer choices, when faced with a decision. For me, making a decision involves effort and a certain degree of stress. The simpler the choice, the easier it is for me to get through the choice and the happier I am with the outcome. I can certainly related to this. But I don't see the inverse-correlation with freedom.

Craig


Post 42

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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Craig!

You survived the hurricanes, too, eh?

Anyway, there's a traditional assumption that more choices (i.e., greater freedom) always leads to greater happiness. The reference suggests that sometimes fewer choices (i.e., less freedom) sometimes leads to greater happiness. The paper is in no way suggesting that greater happiness results in less freedom or that less happiness results in greater freedom, if that's what you were suggesting with the "inverse-correlation with freedom" that you didn't see.

Jordan


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Post 43

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan wrote, "[T]here's a traditional assumption that more choices (i.e., greater freedom) always leads to greater happiness. The reference suggests that sometimes fewer choices (i.e., less freedom) sometimes leads to greater happiness. The paper is in no way suggesting that greater happiness results in less freedom or that less happiness results in greater freedom, if that's what you were suggesting with the 'inverse-correlation with freedom' that you didn't see."

The concept of freedom that Objectivists and libertarians endorse is ~the principle~ of freedom of action or of freedom of choice. In other words, by "freedom," we mean the right to act on our own judgment - to control our own lives and property. That kind of freedom can only be violated by coercion. And no one can consent to coercion, because if a person consents to take an action, then by that very fact, he or she is not being coerced.

Suppose, then, that a person decided that "less freedom" made him happier. How would he act on that decision? Well, he could make an agreement with someone to restrict his freedom. Let's say that he agreed to be admitted to a facility in which he was not allowed to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes . Observe that in making such an agreement, he would be consenting to the restriction, in which case, it wouldn't constitute a restriction on his ~freedom of choice~, because he would have chosen it. So, I don't really see a conflict between a right to freedom of choice and a right to the pursuit of happiness. A right to freedom of choice ~implies~ a right to the pursuit of happiness.

- Bill


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Post 44

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 4:46amSanction this postReply
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That is correct, Bill - nicely said...

Post 45

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 7:17amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Fine answer. I'll leave it at that.

Jordan


Post 46

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent answer, Bill!

I have a question for you, Bill: Do you take smart drugs (piracetam, hydergine, etc) -- or are you just "naturally" this astute?

I've been somewhat chemically-enhanced, myself.

Ed

Post 47

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 10:49pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Excellent point. Now-- lets say that people change over time, and that a person may change their decision about being in the drug-free program after participating for a few days. More specific:

Lets say an individual signed an agreement saying they give up their rights to be free to do drugs for one month, and the person they agreed with is free to use any means to prevent him from doing drugs... and now after 1 week they decide they want their freedom back immediately.

Now what?

Post 48

Monday, October 3, 2005 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Gores,

Your question was probably not intended for the public, but I’d like to comment on it anyway in hopes that you won’t be too offended. I'm new here, so it is not yet clear how everything works.

By “Now what?” do you mean to say, “Now, having changed his mind, is this individual being coerced” ?

If so, I would have to say no.
This individual is here by means of his own choice – with his voluntary signature as proof of his decision. Just because he was free to make a decision does not mean that it was necessarily the right one or the best one to make. If you find yourself nose-to-bark with a tree after attempting to drive home drunk, you cannot resent the consequences because they are your own doing. Similarly, you cannot reverse your actions.
Having the freedom of choice is invariably linked to the responsibility for the results of our actions. By signing away his freedom, our theoretical friend made a final decision; changing his mind later on does not entitle him to a do-over.
…Wouldn’t that be nice, though?

TD


Post 49

Monday, October 3, 2005 - 9:23pmSanction this postReply
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Mrs. Dudina,

I agree. Its unfortunate for the person who signed the contract and now wants free from it-- he'd have to attempt to make a new agreement or hope the contract isn't enforced.

"... too offended. I'm new here, so it is not yet clear how everything works."

I'm not toooo offended. That's no excuse. Figure out how everything works, then post : ).

Dean Michael Gores
Power tripping veteran SOLO poster.

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Post 50

Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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Speaking of the government making me happy... I passed the California Bar Exam! Yay! For those who are curious, I've been lurking here since January, having taken a new years resolution not to write on discussion boards starting in 2006, except to write on old threads, hence my dredging up this old thread to tell folks the good news. So hooray for me!

Jordan

Post 51

Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
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To revise an expired thread, I'd like to respond to Post 47 by Dean Michael Gores, which I overlooked when this thread was still active. In reply to my Post 43, he wrote:
Bill,

Excellent point. Now-- lets say that people change over time, and that a person may change their decision about being in the drug-free program after participating for a few days. More specific:

Lets say an individual signed an agreement saying they give up their rights to be free to do drugs for one month, and the person they agreed with is free to use any means to prevent him from doing drugs... and now after 1 week they decide they want their freedom back immediately.

Now what?
I apologize for not answering this question when it was posted over a year ago. I would say that the addict would have no right to object if the facility held him to his agreement. Granted, he wouldn't like it at the time, but the fact of his not liking the period of withdrawal is why he agreed to have it enforced in the first place. He chose the restriction and paid the facility to keep him there, which means that if it were to release him early, it could be subject to a lawsuit, if he were to regret the decision to abort his stay and decide that the facility was remiss in failing to enforce the original contract.

- Bill

Post 52

Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 5:59pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan asks,

"Should the government enforce freedoms that are making people less happy than they would be if the government were to enforce a restriction?"

"Enforce freedoms" is a contradiction in terms.  If the victims of your forcing agree that your demands make them happy, then you are not forcing them because they agree.  The very meaning of force is to make people do what they are not happy to do and do not agree to do. 

John Howard



Post 53

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 7:45amSanction this postReply
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Shades of "This Perfect World"......

Post 54

Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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You've misunderstood my question, John Howard. Read through the thread, and you'll see where you went wrong.

Again, congratulations to me!
Jordan


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