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Post 60

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, thanks.

It's all about context, think about what the small steps should be, but keep the ultimate goal in mind.

---Landon


Post 61

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 4:09pmSanction this postReply
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 Landon, That's just it. do you really think privatizing schools is a real option, as I've defined "real option" in earlier posts? I'm not saying your idea is bad, but I do think it's a bad stopping point. In my view, it's the type of answer that places well-intentioned Objectivists into the ineffectual political margin.

Jordan


Post 62

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Have you read tax credits for education? If you discuss it alongside polarizing issues it starts to seem even more plausible and logical of an alternative.

It encourages private schools to develop along all kinds of different educational paths, people to be rewarded with their own tax money for using them. Thus deiving the point home that you're paying for it either way, so you may as well have some control over it. It still allows for public schools for the extremely poor. But since private schools wouldn't have to beg the government for money, they just have to be good enough to get customers, it would drive home the point "you get what you pay for." 

This arguement would be extremely effective considering how popular homeschooling is becoming, and there are parents who want control of education (especially the quality thereof) but can also see the value of social interaction in their children.

You convince someone of the value of this idea, you have an ally. You have someone who will help, more importantly you've started building bridges into the societal mainstream.

But it's all about degree, it's all about keeping context.  You can't just focus on a recent small issue and stop there, you have to have a view of a total game plan.  The small battles can sometimes be easy to win, so you should know where you're going when you win.

---Landon


Post 63

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,
Although as far as govenment paychecks go...  While it's not terribly objectivist of me... if someone goes to fight for the country and ends up in a POW hellhole for years...  I really don't terribly mind helping him pay his rent.  I'd say he's earned it.
I don't begrudge McCain his military pay.  My point was that he has no experience earning a paycheck by making his valuable to someone trying to turn a profit, or by trying to turn a profit himself.  The government can be a great insulator from reality, and it has insulated McCain from economic reality.

As for Objectivism and military service, I can't see anything wrong with paying another person to defend you.  If you can't effectively defend yourself, or you can make better use of your time, that's a transaction that probably makes sense.

Andy


Post 64

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, I know all about tax credits for education, Rand's bit and more. But I think it's far from a real option, which again is an option that will likely come to fruition in the meantime, at least as a temporary solution.

Jordan


Post 65

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
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Why not?  Out of all her ideas it seemed like a step in the dirrection of practical.

Accepting the fact that private schools as an industry have been on the decline due to high costs and the availablity of public education, what do you see in error about that particular idea?

---Landon


Post 66

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, Landon really does have a good point here. Considering the research I've seen on public education, the cost/value ratio ($ spent / SAT score) not only pales in comparison to private education -- but it has only been getting WORSE with time.

Sheesh, a single 70% score on an SAT test -- now costs society about as much as a friggin' 1-bedroom condo!

Ed

Post 67

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks again Ed. I didn't know it cost that frickin much... Somebody needs to cut and paste that essay into a formletter and pass it around the net harder than the "Bill gates will give you $1000 for each person who recieves this".

---Landon


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Post 68

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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Milwaukee annual public education cost -- per student (1996-1997): $7500

Years of schooling required to pass SATs: several

Value added by moving toward private schooling: priceless


Ed

Stats from:
Wisconsin State Budget Office

Cited in:
Larry Elder's book: The 10 things you can't say in America

Post 69

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 11:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, those numbers are even more disturbing if the data on grade inflation is true.

In the U.S. I have been seeing more and more colleges pop up over night. If places like the University of Phoenix (beware of them, I am just using them as an example) can create for profit schools very quickly, with no gov't assistence, then why couldn't the same be done for grade schools, high schools etc? Apollo Group has shown that education as business is profitable. They are not the best example, as they are kind of shady, but they are one of the bigger ones out there.

The private high school I attended was only $4000 a year. I left that school after a year to go to public school because I "wanted the experience". I cannot even begin to describe how terrible it was. I ended up dropping out after two weeks; in that short of an amount of time I had received death threats, along with having to sit in classes re-learning what I learned in grade school.


Post 70

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 12:31amSanction this postReply
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Donald, thanks for sharing your experience. Good points. I, too, have spent enough time to have experience with both public and private educational institutions. As an educator, allow me to iterate: grade inflation is real. The 'problem of public education' is a sleeping giant, one that is slowly awakening.

Ed



Post 71

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 6:51amSanction this postReply
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You guys are helping me prove my point. Sure, Landon's idea might be great one, but it's not a real option. Why? Because we are firmly entrenched in state public school systems. There's no way in hell that lawmakers today are going to privatize schools as a response to the question of ID in the classroom. Can't you see that!?  School privatization is no where close to being on today's political table, especially as the answer to ID.

Jordan


Post 72

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

< nitpick >
Landon's idea would be improbable, but still residing in the realm of reality. Thus it would be a "real" option.
< /nitpick >

Yes, I see your point and agree.

Sarah

(Edited by Sarah House
on 9/14, 9:33am)


Post 73

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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From Elder's book:

================
The Cleveland School Board passed a limited voucher program in which, through a lottery system, a small number of "disadvantaged students" could use vouchers to opt out of government schools.

Unfortunately, the Cleveland Voucher Program proved so popular that more than 17,500 families applied for the 3500 available positions. The winners' joy didn't last long. On the eve of the classes, a Cleveland judge issued an injunction temporarily banning the use of tax dollars for parochial schools. The appellate court removed this injunction, yet the entrenched public education establishment, especially the unions, remain a staunch opponent to vouchers.
================

This is one battle in a war. Also, it seems we can (and did) win the legal battle regarding this subject, even if losing a political one.


================
I asked whether government possessed the power to tax taxpayers for education. [Milton] Friedman said, "Your question really is whether the federal government possesses the power to tax taxpayers." He then said, "No, the federal government has no power whatsoever to spend any tax dollars on education. Now, will any Supreme Court justice agree with me? No. But, based on how the Founders drafted the Constitution, with its doctrine of limited powers, as well as the reservation clause, the Constitution provides no basis for the federal government's role in education. None."
================

Here is another victory, on another battlefield, of this war (the philosophical battlefield). The battlefield we've yet to win is that of contemporary politics (which has distanced itself from philosophy, truth, and value). Getting more philosophy into politics is the key, just as getting more philosophy founding capitalism -- as Rand eloquently pointed out -- would be the key.

Ed


Post 74

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
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What I was trying to say above is that we can win the battles in the legal and philosophical arenas (where truth, value, and logic are the standard for the 'good').

We just need to elevate politics into a proper arena where real good is sought. Politics is not currently an arena where real good is sought. It is not an arena of truth, value, and logic. This, in a nutshell, is our problem.

Ed

Post 75

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Jordon, there are so many ways in which we can slowly approach reaching the ideal.  I also recall Rand saying that anything devised by man can (and does) change, as opposed to actual laws of reality.  To wit, go back a mere 500 years and tell me if anyone would see government as we have it now as even being in the realm of possibility.

However, to answer your question, any time I see less taxes, less government, and even more global competition, I see libertarian ideas winning.  What will stop socialism in Europe?  What removed Communism?  The failure of these systems and increasing competition.  Those who do not adapt are left in the dust, and the fact that the world is more connected actually helps the better ideas to win, because if Europe or the US doesn't want to lower taxes, maybe Ireland does and attracts more business and people, putting pressure on others to do the same.

Bottom line is, while the ultimate ideas are goals to keep espousing, progress is still made.  I think on these forums, many people are arguing with (from an outsider's perspective) similar minded people, and the disagreements all seem so far from what is out there now.

Regarding the credit issue and the connectedness you speak of, these are positives to liberty not negatives.  Credit allows people to leverage their potential, and despite its pitfalls is an overall positive for growth and entrepreneurism.  As others mentioned, connectivity now allows anyone to write and communicate with people the world over and exchange ideas, all without or despite the best efforts of states to hold back! 

Earlier on this board, I was taken to task for what I feel is a man with a strategic vision who, while not an Objectivist, is showing a way in which our goals can be achieved as well as many of those whose philosophy may not be in agreement with ours, such as left-leaning and religious people.  This is not a "compromise" but away to achieve the goals of a better world, whether your motive is self-interest or altruism, the results actually do both.  I recommend you take a look at Thomas P.M. Barnett (www.thomaspmbarnet.com) for example.  To me, I feel it is an example of how to:

1)  Have people from an extremely broad section of ideologies agree on a strategic vision
2)  Achieve more connectivity and security, thereby increasing our economic prosperity and security, which necessitates the same for other people to enjoy the same.
3)  When it gets to the right point, Objectivism should be able to win in the free exchange of ideas, and already is in many cases - hence the emphasis on private action by business and private and individual investment, within a structure of security that is a proper function of even a minarchist government.
4)  How to have a positive viewpoint rather than a negative and ultimately futile one (as I see at places like ARI and TOC)
5)  Plus, for all the malarchy spouted by proponents of various ideas, this is something that important people in government and business take seriously - it is something realistic, not ramblings by leftist or anarchist nutballs.


Post 76

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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So what are you suggesting, Jordan?

It would appear, then, the only "real" option would be to abandon Objectivist prinicples for the time being and, say, advocate more funding for public schools in the hope of bringing the average IQ up enough that they could, then, appreciate the virtues of a privatized system?

Something like that?

Otherwise this would all almost seem to imply Objectivism is inherently impractical.


Post 77

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,
 
I struggled with the terminology the same way you nitpicked it. I couldn't think of a term better than "real option." Any ideas?

Kurt,

I think you started addressing Jason in the middle of your post, so I'll leave that be. As for that part addressed to me, yes, there're many ways to slowly approach an ideal. But shouting "free market!" then walking away is ineffectual in a great many issues. Objectivists should accept that "free market!", for a great many issues, is not a real option.

Jason,

I'm suggesting that Objectivists argue for real options. For example, with the ID debate, Objectivists could mention how privatization would obviate the issue, but then concentrate on what should be done given that we're currently stuck with public school systems. (I don't see how increased public school funding is an answer, much less a real option, to the ID debate, so I don't know why you mentioned it.) Rand was fond of the prayer that goes, "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." That's the jist of this thread.

Jordan


Post 78

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan - I asked because at this point, we seem to be running out of options for the schooling question in general.  You shot down privatization, and you also poo-pooed using the "credits" idea to combat I.D. "theory."

So what's left?  MORE money?  There aren't just many other options.

Well, besides the ever popular "lion pit" but for some reason Conservatives just don't want to return to THOSE traditional values.  ;-)


Post 79

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

A solution plausible in the foreseeable future given current circumstances? The solutions being provided are ones that alter the current circumstances and you seem to be after a solution that works within those circumstances while still adhering to Objectivist principles.

Sarah

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