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Post 80

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt - that seemed to be the prospects envisioned in Davidson's book, Sovereign Individuals...

Post 81

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

You get what I'm going for, but I think I'll stick with the succinct, and possibly misleading, "real option."
 
Jason,

With regard to ID, why not just argue for it to be kept out of science classroom? That's a real option. It's on the table. I could explain why that option honors Objectivism moreso than its alternatives, but I don't so much want to digress. Nor do I want to digress with discussing Rand's credit idea. I didn't comment on it before, save to say that it's not going to happen any time soon. But I will add that the voucher programs currently in effect are a far cry from Rand's credit idea. They by and large exist to subside sectarian education at the expense of public education. If you want to explore real options in some political topic, start a new thread. This thread is simply to nail down the point that Objectivists offer solutions for the ideal, not the real.

Jordan


Post 82

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Jordan!

You had been turning your observation into a self-fulfilling prophecy.  I don't know about anyone else; I was just waiting for *you* to throw out a halfway practical suggestion.  :-)

And yes, I'd have no moral qualms at all banishing that nonsense from the schools either.


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Post 83

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah writes
> Jordan...you seem to be after a solution that works within those circumstances while still adhering to Objectivist principles.

I think Jordan is criticising what are called "...and a pony!" solutions. These are what you come up with when faced with difficult practical problem, and instead of solving it, you just appeal to a wishful scenario to make it go away. For example, "In a truly capitalist society, campaign finance would be no problem because there would be no corrupt political parties..."etc

It's not just younger idealists who mistake wishful thinking for sound arguments. Here's Tibor Machan with a classic "...and a pony!" solution to the difficult problem of funding a government in an Objectivist society:

("Are Societies Owned?" - Tibor Machan, Solo)
"...Of course, in complex, developed, free societies, the citizenry will most likely have instituted a legal order or government, based on the principles of freedom—individual rights to life, liberty and property, for example. And they will probably have instituted some means by which those administering such a system will be paid for their work—user fees, shares of wealth owned, a flat sum, or something more novel and unheard of (e.g., contract fees). Citizens can come together (roughly along the same lines as the original American colonists) and establish a legal order or government that will be empowered, without violating anyone’s rights, to provide for a clear definition, elaboration, and defense of everyone’s rights. Then, once such a group of citizens has come together and instituted a government with just powers—powers that do not violate but protect individual rights—the proper funding of the work of such a government can be spelled out...."

So let's just review what Tibor is actually saying here. That is, in some "complex", truly "free" society of the future, citizens will "most likely" have "elaborated" a "clear definition" of rights, and will "come together" and "probably" create "some means" - perhaps "novel" and "unheard of" - of funding. Problem solved!

The reason this sort of thing is called the "...and a pony!" argument is that if your proposed solution is actually just a series of vague wishes - harmonious future orders, just powers, the spelling out of the yet-unknown etc - then while you're at it, you might as well wish for a pony too!...;-)

- Daniel

Post 84

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

I didn't want to use this thread as a vehicle to push what I thought were real options. Accordingly, I've been trying to avoid them. Still, I do understand why you were looking for a real option from me. I hope the little I've shared is sufficient for this thread. If you'd like to start some other thread fleshing out some other real options, I'm game.

Daniel,
"...and a pony!"
omigod that's perfect!

Jordan


Post 85

Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel.  I like that term and you do have a point.  But I guess what I'm against is "throw a beaten dog a bone solutions."

Where you accept that the possibility of anything resembling an ideal is impossible, you work on your enemies' terms, with a stacked deck, and you lose... consistantly.  But you salivate anytime you hear lip service to one of your ideas which is not going to lead to follow through.

---Landon


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