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Friday, March 24, 2006 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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Chew on this one folks:

Objectivism:...to be conscious is to perceive something, consciousness requires something outside of itself in order to function...


Mysticism: Only in the parlance of materialism. Consciousness, even for Husserlian Phenomenologists*, can be conscious of itself. This is reflexive consciousness and describes a process of involution that is is often considered the 'mechanism' of the Transcendental Ego.

If the physical universe developed from a zero-dimension Singularity, then the Reality itself and the apprehension of what came before physics seems to me to be metaphysical, by definition. I therefore assume the stance of Intuition as the most appropriate psychic function that I possess in order to have any kind of knowledge of THAT which gave rise to the universe. Thinking, Feeling and Sensing have no affinity for apprehending Mystery (using Jungian categories), and Mystery preceeds manifestation, hence the primacy of consciousness.

The Kabbalists described intuitively the notion of Tsim-Tsum - the formation of the Singularity by a
'withdrawal' of the Infinite density the 'distance' of a Singularity, into which the realm of Pure Ideas could begin to manifest (exist), 'externally' as you say from the Divine Mind. Like a 'contractile vacuole' in an Infinite Amoeba, the universe continues to expand, with the curved 'boundary' expanding into the 'Infinite Divine Substance.' The universe could expand eternally into the Infinity of God, but others, like the Hindus, say that it will collapse upon itself, returning to the Singularity - perhaps to repeat the process forever with infinite variations.

In whatever scheme, THAT which is ontologically prior to creation is ontos, Being - Essence - hence, philosophically, 'Essence precedes Existence,' or 'God precedes Creation' theologically cast.

* Here is a brief 'clear' description of what this is referencing. The former materialistic perception of 'Existence precedes Essence' was caused by the failure to push further back into the source of my mentation. Hence:

" The transcendental-phenomenological reduction is a methodological device, required before one can begin to do phenomenology. Roughly, it is the transition from an ordinary, straightforward attitude toward the world and the objects in to a reflective attitude....Once we perform the reduction, Husserl claimed, we discover what he called 'the transcendental ego,' or 'pure consciousness,' for which everything that exists is an object. We discover that whatever is in the world is only as an object for our pure consciousness...Phenomenology is now characterized as the exploration and description of a realm of being, previously unsuspected, which is the absolute foundation of the experienced world, a realm of being, moreover, which is not accessible to empirical observation but only to phenomenological description and to something Husserl called 'eidetic intuition'...Because the existence of the transcendental ego is indubitable, its discovery serves both to distinguish phenomenology from the empirical sciences and to provide the Archimedean point at which to begin our studies."

From The Encyclopedia of Philosophy , Volumes 3 and 4, p.98

(Edited by Warren Chase Anspaugh on 3/24, 5:49pm)


Post 1

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 6:08pmSanction this postReply
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If the physical universe developed from a zero-dimension Singularity
I stopped reading right there.

On another tangent, I disagree that there must be something external to oneself in order to be conscious. One could simply sense oneself.

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Post 2

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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Directly or indirectly, every phenomenon of consciousness is derived from one's awareness of the external world. Some object, i.e., some content, is involved in every state of awareness. Extrospection is a process of cognition directed outward -- a process of apprehending some existent(s) of the external world. Introspection is a process of cognition directed inward -- a process of apprehending one's own psychological actions in regard to some existent(s) of the external world, such actions as thinking, feeling, reminiscing, etc. ... A content-less state of consciousness is a contradiction in terms.
Ayn Rand, Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology
Because to be conscious is to perceive something, consciousness requires something outside of itself in order to function; consciousness requires and is dependent upon, existence.
Further, a consciousness cannot merely be conscious of itself, as Descartes implied. To be a consciousness, it must be conscious of something external to itself. Only after it is conscious of something external can it identify itself. Like a car motor that generates electricity for it's own use, it needs to be kick-started by something outside of it. It needs existence.
-Importanceofphilosophy

What thinkest thou?


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Friday, March 24, 2006 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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to be conscious is to perceive something, consciousness requires something outside of itself in order to function


It depends on what definition of consciousness, what definition of function, and what "something outside" means. You could lock a living child into a cage in a room, feed it and clean it with very little of the normative 5-senses stimulation, for years, and what comes out of that cage is still conscious in a rudimentary, but functional, way (sentient-- capable of feeling and suffering). On the other hand, a crab is conscious because it perceives that "something outside of itself". Or, a blind person is no less conscious, in general, than me, even if they have one less sense faculty.

Likewise, perception is not an all-or-none response either, as the attentional mechanisms of the brain interact with perception to allow for differing ranges of what stimuli we're most aware of, versus others. If anyone has ever 'not heard' a sound (i.e. their cellphone) because they were focused on discussion or a sports game, this is what I mean. The cellphone's sound wasn't perceived, but the cellphone owner was still conscious in the general sense. An interesting thought is when we can hear sounds while sleeping; i.e. alarm clock. On some level, sleep is described as a form of unconsciousness, but perceptual abilities are not necessarily shut off proportionally.

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Friday, March 24, 2006 - 7:07pmSanction this postReply
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Directly or indirectly, every phenomenon of consciousness is derived from one's awareness of the external world. Some object, i.e., some content, is involved in every state of awareness.


Can you expand on this? This is really vague to me. What is meant by "phenomenon"-- thoughts? thought *patterns*? action potentials in the brain? What is meant by "content"-- an external object? A concept drawn from reality? Words? I'm not battling over existence or reality, btw. I just want to make things clearer for myself.

Post 5

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 7:43pmSanction this postReply
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What thinkest thou?
Thyself thinkest: one should not even attempt to separate "consciousness" from Reality. "Consciousness" is a process, a process of parts of reality performing operations on other parts of reality, where the former parts are called "operators" and the later parts are called "operands". A process is changes that parts of reality go through as Reality changes (over time).

Thyself thinkest: its trivial to think of a small Reality, one that has operators and operands, where the operators are operating on operands and the operands are simply parts of the small Reality, and the operators are parts of the small Reality, the operators only operate on "itself" where "itself" is the small Reality.

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Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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quoteIt depends on what definition of consciousness, what definition of function, and what "something outside" means. You could lock a living child into a cage in a room, feed it and clean it with very little of the normative 5-senses stimulation, for years, and what comes out of that cage is still conscious in a rudimentary, but functional, way (sentient-- capable of feeling and suffering). On the other hand, a crab is conscious because it perceives that "something outside of itself". Or, a blind person is no less conscious, in general, than me, even if they have one less sense faculty.





The problem I have with your example is the child in question was not totally sense deprived. Granted I would hope no one would ever be sick enough to do an experiment with a living human to see what the results of almost total sense deprivation from birth would be, but without such an experiment I see no way we could actually determine if consciousness would occur with the brain left to itself and having no outside interaction through the senses.


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Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 6:52amSanction this postReply
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On another tangent, I disagree that there must be something external to oneself in order to be conscious. One could simply sense oneself.



Thyself thinkest: one should not even attempt to separate "consciousness" from Reality



I am wondering how you reconcile these two statements.

If indeed the mind is a "Tabla Rasa" when born-and I believe it to be thus- then what would one be aware *of* with no external sensations to form perceptions?


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Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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The problem I have with your example is the child in question was not totally sense deprived.


I know this example was only partial in terms of externally induced sense deprivation that led to marked atrophy in normal brain development. I never thought of this problem as a totality question. I don't think in consciousness in terms of extremes. As for total and complete sense deprivation, that is unknown. Brain damage, coma, anesthesia, and external sense deprivation (isolation) are the closest examples so far. Sense deprivation can mean different things as well, as the pathway from sense organ to brain can be interrupted at any point. There has been mapping of certain brain regions to certain senses; of course, I view the senses as much more than the 5 senses. I also think of pressure, balance, and orientation as well-- all of these with its seat in the brain. Therefore total external sense deprivation wasn't even a problem I thought of; I have never seen a human who has not ever felt anything through any of their 8 or 9 senses. But since I figured utter totality was incomprehensible, I took that as a given and went to where ranges of consciousness/sense provided fascinating study. Brain development to normal human adult functioning requires an interplay of external and internal stimulation.

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Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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Very interesting reply, thanks

There has been mapping of certain brain regions to certain senses; of course, I view the senses as much more than the 5 senses. I also think of pressure, balance, and orientation as well-- all of these with its seat in the brain. Therefore total external sense deprivation wasn't even a problem I thought of;   
I guess I am like a lot of people who think mainly of the five sense when this type of discussion comes up.


Re the other senses you speak of it I wonder how many could or would function independent of outside stimuli. Take pressure for example, it would seem by it's nature to be subject to the external. I am not so sure on the others although I do know the inner ears affect this.


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Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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What is meant by "phenomenon"-- thoughts? thought *patterns*? action potentials in the brain?
Basically: Every action or process which consciousness actively partakes or operates in. This is diametrically opposed to the somewhat common notion [particularly with mystics] that consciousness is merely some "passive" mirror/observer. Anyway, I suppose all the phenomena you listed would fit in with what Rand was talking about in I to OE.

What is meant by "content"-- an external object? A concept drawn from reality? Words?
Any content in consciousness will naturally be related or pertinent to a specific object or group of objects. This doesn't necessarily have to be an external object [as in external to one's sense perceptions]. One can be introspectively conscious of their own thought processes, all of which are rooted in the objective system of their brain. That is to say, one can be conscious of the brain as an object - albeit from an introspective point of view.

That's my best casual response. Mind, I'm still a bit of a "student" in Oism and have a long, long ways to go before I could honestly acknowledge myself as anywhere near a "Teacher" or "Master Oist".  ;)


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Post 11

Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 11:07pmSanction this postReply
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As I understand Rand, the content of one's consciousness is one's awareness of any object that one is conscious of. So, a child's awareness of his mother is part of the content of his consciousness.

Consciousness can also be aware of itself, an awareness that is also part of its content, but it cannot be aware only of itself, because in order to identify itself as consciousness, it would first have to be conscious, which means that it would have to be conscious of something other than itself. Only then could it identify, and become conscious of, its own existence.

To put it another way, to be conscious is to be conscious of something. Consciousness must always have an object. So, to be conscious of one's consciousness is to be conscious of one's consciousness of...an object. There has to be something that one is conscious of in order for consciousness to exist. Then and only then can one be conscious of one's process of being conscious.

This, by the way, exposes the fallacy inherent in creationism, which says that God, a pure spirit or consciousness, created everything else that exists. But if, prior to creation, nothing else existed except God, then God himself could not exist, because he would then be a consciousness with nothing to be conscious of, which is a contradiction in terms.

- Bill

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Post 12

Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 8:19amSanction this postReply
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It's philosophically profitable to view consciousness as one of the following, all starting with "d": discovery, discernment, distinguishing, discrimination, differentiation, or distinction-making. In order to even have a discrimination, to distinguish something, etc., etc. -- one needs a background to distinguish something against.

It has been said that -- whoever first discovered water, it wasn't a fish. That's because (besides lacking concepts) fish aren't normally exposed to any non-water reality. Fish don't get a chance to discover the contrast of water from non-water. Because of this, they are not conscious of water, per se -- because they lack a conscious distinction for the stuff.

Ed
[we are 'rational discriminators', and 'knowledge' is effective distinction]


Post 13

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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I have a question, folks.

In "Philosophy: Who Needs It", Rand clarifies that:
"Nature, i.e., the universe as a whole, cannot be created or annihilated; it cannot come into or go out of existence. All the countless forms, motions, combinations and dissolutions of elements within the universe - from a floating speck of dust to the formation of a galaxy to the emergence of life - are caused and determined by the identities of the elements involved. Nature is the metaphysically given - i.e., the nature of nature is outside the power of any volition."

Matter, substance or energy cannot be destroyed or annihilated, although they can change various forms. Moreover, if they cannot be annihilated, they could not have been "created". The indestructible is uncreatable.

We cannot conceive of the creation of force, or of its destruction. Force may be changed from one form to another - from motion to heat - but it cannot be destroyed or annihilated.

If force cannot be destroyed it could not have been created. It is eternal; static.

Moreover, matter, substance or energy cannot exist apart from force. Force cannot exist apart from matter. This has been shown by several scientists, but most clearly by Buchner.

My question is: In light of the above, how does Objectivism deal with the observation that the Laws of Thermodynamics [which is basically being paraphrased above] only applies to physics after physics came into existence? The early universe was of a superheated nature in which the physics were completely different from the physics to which the now known laws pertain, from what I've been told. So, uh.. what's up?


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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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Warren,

===========
... how does Objectivism deal with the observation that the Laws of Thermodynamics [which is basically being paraphrased above] only applies to physics after physics came into existence? The early universe was of a superheated nature in which the physics were completely different from the physics to which the now known laws pertain, from what I've been told. So, uh.. what's up?
===========

Physics -- whose subject matter is "matter & energy" -- never really 'came into' existence. It has always been true of reality. The familiar and common 'laws of physics' -- those that hold true in the knowable universe -- are contextual laws, in a kind of counter-intuitive manner.

The laws of physics are not 'necessarily' meant to hold true at over, say, a trillion degrees Celsius (a temperature without existential instantiation in the known universe) -- that would be context-dropping. They are meant to explain the relationships that will be noted throughout the universe, while life is still possible in that universe -- ie. because the whole damn thing ISN'T one giant (or miniscule) inferno.

Does THAT answer your question?

Ed


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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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Physics was always existing; the laws were how humans *discovered* a certain order to how things work. Also, since these laws describe reality, they are contextually relevant in terms of size, history, scope, etc; i.e. Newtonian mechanics (macro) and QM (micro).

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
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So phenomenon has always been eternal; static, and as such, so has physics?

As long as existence exists, so does phenomena, and so does physics - albeit in varying contexts?


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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 9:51pmSanction this postReply
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That sounds right to me, Warren.

What about you?

Ed


Post 18

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 9:56pmSanction this postReply
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Jenna,

==========
the laws were how humans *discovered* a certain order to how things work
==========

I really like that synopsis -- ie. discovered uniformity of nature.

Ed


Post 19

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 3:50amSanction this postReply
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I really like that synopsis -- ie. discovered uniformity of nature.


Ed: That's basically the "complexity science" part of my job... to see the order in nature, and to provide explanations (equations, theories, models, etc.) for this order. I really enjoy the act of pattern recognition, seeing trends, finding order in what appears to be chaotic. I just bought two books: "Self-Organization in Biology" and "The Origins of Order". :)

Warren: Physics is the word we give to refer to the machinations of nature; nature is what exists independently of us. Nature can be seen contextually with the interaction between our brain/minds and external reality, via scope: one can look at an organ as a whole, or look at groupings of cells within that organ. Both exist no matter how we look at it. I hope this is clear? It's about 5am, I'm writing an essay for philosophy class, and I'm sick, so let me know if it's unclear :)

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