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Post 60

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:03amSanction this postReply
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Sharon,
"If I want you to treat me as I would myself;

No no no no no. That's not what I was saying at all. Nobody can treat yourself as you. I'd like to treat you as you would want to treat me, not yourself.


Post 61

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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Whatever my definition Hong, the onus is on me to communicate to you; and on you to set me straight, as you did just now. Yes?

Post 62

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:25amSanction this postReply
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This is just silly. Enough already of tolerating dissident views.


Absolutely, totally agree, especially on a *Dissent* forum.

Tiananmen Square for lunch anyone?


Post 63

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for your input Mr. Hall.  Are you expecting me to bring the crow?  Under glass?       **

Post 64

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:35amSanction this postReply
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Whatever my definition Hong, the onus is on me to communicate to you; and on you to set me straight, as you did just now. Yes?

No. There is no onus on either you or me. We do what we like and can stop at any time.


Post 65

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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But Hong, it is my pleasure to have you understand my point of view; thus  I bear the burden of making the pudding that serves the proof.  N'est-ce pas?

Neither have you to look at the menu nor choose the dish.  I cannot fault you. I fault myself, for not having found the compelling voice that calls to you in the middle of the night.  

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Post 66

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
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I thought I could keep out of this but the following is just too bizarre:

Sharon: "If I want you to treat me as I would myself; the onus is on me to educate you and all others in the ways of my uniqueness."

Hong put her finger on the issue with:
"No no no no no. That's not what I was saying at all. Nobody can treat yourself as you. I'd like to treat you as you would want to treat me, not yourself."

Sharon admitted her error with:
"Whatever my definition Hong, the onus is on me to communicate to you; and on you to set me straight, as you did just now. Yes?"

however, she doesn't seem to understand how egregious this mistake is. In order to treat you as you, yourself, would like I would have to abet your values, no matter how depraved they are. The most reprehensible child rapist and killer would want you to understand his "uniqueness" and depravity and treat him as he would like. The acceptance of abhorrent behaviour is obscene. That is why your views, Sharon, are repugnant to Objectivists and there is no common ground.

Sam



Post 67

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 11:25amSanction this postReply
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Sam,  I cannot agree that your hard, unforgiving stance, with less perfect individuals, is the most effective means of  building  a world in which we, who know the direction of our highest sense of life, can achieve the most freedom and satisfaction.

Understanding and feeling empathy with criminals permits me to remain objective; to administer consequences if necessary, and to move on from them and reach a higher level of ecstasy.  Carrying the baggage of anger and revenge is not my idea of something to pack and unpack when I get to my new house.

Reminds me of a college friend, who was very casual in her housekeeping; even more than I.     hehehe   I was surprised at the news that she had moved from a great apartment  to just another  equally good apartment.

Laughingly she replied, "Oh Sharon, it was so dirty, we had to move". 

My mother taught me to respect the new tenants, and to leave my old place as clean as I would want it to be for me.  She would even come and help. There's some dirt I don't want my mother to see; so I try to get rid of it before it becomes an issue.  That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. 

Moving real and figurative garbage from one place to another prevents one from travelling light and flying high.  Do you see the anti-life influence it has on one's life?  Do you ever read any of Luke Setzer's articles?

Are you here to explore an idea Sam, or to snipe?  I don't want to assign emotions where none are intended.

Thanks for chiming in. 

Sharon


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Post 68

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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quoteThanks for your input Mr. Hall.  Are you expecting me to bring the crow?  Under glass?       **





I would much prefer Pheasant Sharon. I don't particularly care for the taste of Crow having had to eat it more than once when served up by myself. :-)


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Post 69

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Sharon,

I posted about your collectivist/altruistic position, and you haven't responded.

When I discuss a topic, I seek clarity. One way to do that is to discuss the topic in fundamentals, and not get distracted by other topics. The "perpetuation of the species" is fundamental, because you have suggested it is the main goal in life, which makes it the standard of your morality. All other questions of values and choices hinge on this. You now want to talk about empathy, but that's a derivative issue and a distraction. How can we discuss the merits of empathy when we can't even agree with what the purpose is? We can't.

Let me provide an example. You say "the ability to feel empathy with others is a key human attribute". The ability to feel it is a human attribute. Is it key? That implies it's very important, perhaps critical. But important for what end? As an Objectivist, I can explain how empathy is useful to our own lives. I can say that a generalized benevolence towards people makes it easier to create opportunities for positive interaction, whether financial, romantic, or any other. I can show how thinking about the motivations of others can help each of us strengthen the harmony of interests amongst our friends and associates by making sure both sides benefit substantially. I can show how this understanding of their emotions and motivations can let us understand and appreciate them better, and how we can learn about ourselves in the process.

But these are all aimed at showing how empathy improves my own life, not the species. It's not some blanket position that says we should feel empathy. It says empathy can be a value because, under certain circumstances, it promotes that individual's life. And that also puts limitations on it.

But when "the species" is the goal, none of those values are necessary. An Objectivists has to make it worth the while of others to trade with him and give him the values he desires. But a collectivist can use the brutal power of government to force those values. An Objectivist has to provide a romantic partner with values. If promotion of the species is the standard, love has nothing to do with it.

That's why the standard of morality is a fundamental issue. We can't discuss the value or merit of anything without it.

You did ask "Setting Objectivism aside for a moment, why are altruism, mysticism and collectivism the axis of evil?".

I feel no need to set aside Objectivism, nor would I want to. These aren't evil because Rand declared them to be. They're evil because of their nature.

Collectivism is the annihilation of the individual. It tells each person that they are nothing outside of the collective, and they live to serve the collective. And if the collective benefits from their death, they die for it. He's nothing by himself, and has to justify his every action, and even his life, by the "needs" of the collective.

Altruism is the morality of self-sacrifice. While it claims to be about helping others, in practice it is measured by the harm you do yourself. It's a philosophy that asked you to destroy yourself so others don't have to. It asks for the slaves and human sacrifices to be voluntary.

Mysticism is the destruction of reason and man's mind. It says that it's proper to not think, and instead just believe or feel. It claims reason is a trap or an illusion, and upholds irrationality as the true way of grasping "reality", whatever that is.

And together, they reinforce each other. Mysticism is the epistemological justification for the other two. It's the "proof". Collectivism upholds a standard where the group (i.e., others) is the proper recipient of moral actions. Altruism is the ethical byproduct of collectivism, and preaches how you should act in order to further the collective.

We're not dealing with simply a diminished life, or giving unearned gifts. We're dealing with the justification of living. When the individual's life is a means to the interests of others, the question is not whether he should be sacrificed or not, but under what conditions should that sacrifice be made.

We're not dealing with arrested intellectual growth, and the possibility of not living a fully realized life. We're dealing with death and carnage on a global scale, with hundreds of millions of people slaughtered in the last century alone.

Post 70

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 4:49pmSanction this postReply
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Understanding and feeling empathy with criminals permits me to remain objective; to administer consequences if necessary, and to move on from them and reach a higher level of ecstasy.  Carrying the baggage of anger and revenge is not my idea of something to pack and unpack when I get to my new house.
Does justice translate to anger and revenge to you, Sharon?

If one is empathetic toward criminals, how can one be objective about the consequences when dealing with such individuals?

I can't put my finger on it, but the idea of "understanding" evil kinda gives me the creeps. It suggests a form of acceptance toward evil. Which, in turn, suggests a kind of moral equivalence with good. Which is wholly removed from Objectivism.

Do you think the idea of evil is a valid concept?  Should empathy replace a personal sense of justice?


Post 71

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Thank you for those very illustrative descriptions of the evils of altruism and collectivism.  I agree they are  the handmaidens of mysticism; the root of all irrationality.  I do not get value out of emotionally charged words such as evil, in an objective argument.  Altruism and collectivism are an inconvenience to me.  I did and still survive under that yoke.  I don't like it; and I amuse myself finding ways to overcome the restrictions..  Ayn Rand disagreed. She claimed that she would rather die than be a slave to others.  I am not the young woman of We the Living, I am a survivor.  In other words there is something worse than slavery.

It is abandonment. 

The human species can survive and grow under slavery; but on its own, the human animal can barely sustain life.  Your descriptions of the benefits that you found in empathy, did not reach back to this fundamental. 

Empathy is the non-verbal attribute that connects one human to another.  It is the universal emotional bond between babies and adults. Empathy ensures that babies are nurtured until they become independent and  productive, and hopefully, flourishing adults.  Human evolution has provided humans with this fundamental attribute in order that the developing young are given the (now into twenty some years) long childhood and adolescence. 

Without this long period of care and nurturing, the human brain would be unable to enjoy the luxury of an education that permits the discovery and understanding of differential calculus.  The human would be tied to the provision of food clothing and shelter.  The luxury of abstract thought would be impossible.  A single family group could never raise a child to this level on its own.  Humans have learned and taught themselves how to cooperate for mutual benefits.  By banding together and experimenting with communal living, humans have learned how to work together.   The great scientific minds we see today, are one result of this evolution in societal living.   We see a society of individuals who owe their existence to empathy; a society of individuals who are seeking the definitive way to be in the world.  A way called Objectivism.

I want to go on Joe, but if you have disagreements with what I have said thus far I think we should settle them now.


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Post 72

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 6:11pmSanction this postReply
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Sharon, I do disagree.

First, I disagree that collectivism and altruism is just an inconvenience. Tell that to the hundreds of millions of dead people. These forces are antithetical to life. You may survive fine to the extent people don't put them into practice or don't consistently believe them, but that doesn't negate their destructive potential.

And second, you say there are worse things then slavery, but you missed the point of most of my last post. Without a standard of morality, that statement is meaningless. What's the worst that can happen by being abandoned? You die? You get lonely? What does any of that matter to the species? If you want to uphold the species as the ultimate end, you have to be consistent.

As I said before, if it's just a rationalization, admit it and we can move on. But I won't pretend that you can have your cake and eat it.

Post 73

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Teresa,

I will try and give you some answers that might be helpful, or not.  We'll see.

Anger and revenge had to do with the emoting I heard in Sam's post. I think that loss of freedom, rehabilitation, making amends, and very important; showing gratitude to the person who helped to rehabilitate you,  are the ways to deal with criminals.  Punishment on its own, is effective only on those who would have responded positively to more enlightened means. Justice is a personal issue.  Some time ago, I read on RoR, that the consequences of crime should be set and dealt by the victims.  I think I could support that.

To be empathetic, means to understand, to know that somehow something went terribly wrong in the life of an innocent baby.  It doesn't mean agreement. It means a recognition that sufficient genuine love and empathy for that child was missing.  The  suffered and went off the rails. The adult suffers still and turns to crime.  We all suffer then,  from the criminal behaviour.  That is very simplistic, but that is the essence of  what happens.

I seldom use the words good and evil.  All those years with young children made such words useless. I think they have to do with mysticism and rhetoric, because they are far removed from my reality. Actions are concrete and need visual adjectives and adverbs. What can be done with words like good and evil? They are inflammatory and bring no positive change. They create confusion.

A personal sense of justice is tempered with empathy.  This way a suitable consequence can be designed. It's a great opportunity for creative genius to show its cynically humourous self. 

Thanks for the interview, Teresa.  I hope you are less creeped out. 

Sharon

Post 74

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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(Edited by Sharon Romagnoli Macdonald on 4/26, 9:46pm)


Post 75

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

The species is very committed to thriving.  Abandonment of the developing human is not conducive to a flourishing species.  Thriving youngsters require dedicated support. I'm sure that is what you would also say.  Empathy is the link that keeps adults fixated on children. It is the link that is the means by which humans will continue to flourish and evolve.  Without empathy, the species is not proceeding at its utmost.

Children are what nature needs in order to continue evolving.  Adults who value children the most have greater empathy than those who do not. Greater empathy gives a higher sense of life.  Empathy is derived from infants.  This is entirely consistent. 

Post 76

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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Sharon:

Suppose that I have the ability to administer a Vulcan Mind Meld a la Spock or be an empath like Councillor Troy of Star Trek, The Next Generation and have perfect rapport with the hypothetical child killer/rapist.. I will thus know and understand every nuance of his thoughts and emotions, and he mine. 

How now brown cow? Am I going to abandon my morals and adopt his, or am I going to abandon him? Do you think I will let him escape the consequences of his actions? Do you think I should? Is there any point to the exercise?

Sam


Post 77

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 9:50pmSanction this postReply
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Sam,

What would you consider the best thing to do?

Post 78

Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 6:03amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

If you understand my weak communication skills as mere rationalization, I admit to being a poor communicator.  If I am unable to argue with you every way until Sunday, you are predisposed to avoiding the essence of my premise.  For my imperfect rhetoric, I am punished by your lack of empathy toward me.  I may have discovered the secret to happiness in the world; but unless you try to understand my point of view, that knowledge will remain in the realm of the unknown. You are suspicious and cautious about buying a pig in a poke from an unknown vendor. 

If I were  young and  vivacious, I could perhaps attempt to insinuate myself onto your lap and seductively try to divert  your attention away from  your logically formal train of thought.  I would insert this new idea about empathy; and you might begin to explore the notion from a new perspective.

If I were your mother, I would invite you for dinner, and while you are distracted by my culinary prowess, I would ask you what you think of  Harry Prosen and Jeremy Griffith. Between mouthfuls, you would ask, "Who?"  I would then tell you about Harry Prosen, a respected psychiatrist who has made discoveries about empathy; and how he is endorsing an enthralling notion by Jeremy Griffith, that  unhappiness in the world is premised on humanity's inability to nurture its young.  You might leave the table and go to your computer to visit    www.humancondition.info  and click on the title NEW ESSAY highlighted in red. 
 
By exploring this idea, I am sure that you could begin to see, as I do, how empathy in humans is at the root of our ability to seek happiness.  I think that you would see cooperation, not as a burden, but as a welcome tool that predisposes others to see value in your worthwhile goals; and to become inspired to join your projects when you need help. 

Alas, on this forum I can offer you no viceral delights. It's the cold logic of rhetoric, that you attend.  What to do?....Well I can pretend that empathetical feelings are floating around within you, and that you are more predisposed this morning to tolerating my weak communication skills. 

In other words I will press on.  This notion of empathy and one's sense of life is more important than curiosity about a woman with such an axe to grind that she tries to dishonour the integrity of another human, who was once her friend.  Is she the epitome of Objectivist thought?.  What value is she achieving?   Her idea threatens none of the bystanders; but my notion requires them to give their heads a shake, and look for convergence, even consensus, another threatening notion for Objectivists. 

I ask that you look at empathy as a self-perpetuating cycle of human interaction. I ask you to become curious about the essence of what Griffith and Prosen are saying, and to look for common ground with Objectivism.  I see it so clearly.  I just haven't the ability to bring it to you on the platter you require. The happiest Objectivists are the ones with empathy. Look around.  Empathy and cooperation are the roots of enlightened self-interest. Lack of empathy builds alienation. Great thinkers have left this RoR site because of hostility from those who decry empathy.

For lack of a platter the dinner remained in the kitchen and the company went home hungry. 

Do you think that Matthew Chris Sciabarra is a man of deep and abiding empathy? Do you think that his empathy is significant to his ability to think and write as he does?   Is his crucifiction to be the firebrand for another rebirth of reason?  It would be a lasting tribute to someone, that so many hold in high esteem.  It's worth a thought, by those who have deeper knowledge than I, of these things.

Sharon

 



           



Post 79

Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 8:54amSanction this postReply
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To be empathetic, means to understand, to know that somehow something went terribly wrong in the life of an innocent baby.  It doesn't mean agreement. It means a recognition that sufficient genuine love and empathy for that child was missing.  The  suffered and went off the rails. The adult suffers still and turns to crime.  We all suffer then,  from the criminal behaviour.  That is very simplistic, but that is the essence of  what happens.
I'll be generous and call this an optimistic view.

I seldom use the words good and evil.  All those years with young children made such words useless. I think they have to do with mysticism and rhetoric, because they are far removed from my reality. Actions are concrete and need visual adjectives and adverbs. What can be done with words like good and evil? They are inflammatory and bring no positive change. They create confusion.
Oh, Sharon, I think it's actually the opposite which causes confusion in young minds. Making a value judgement is inflammatory? Why the negative spin on the exact thing children need to be happy?



 


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