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Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 10:36pmSanction this postReply
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…the Existentialism of the fifties and the sixties, held that reality is absurd and that irrational passion is the only means of knowledge. In such a world, said Sartre, an is the controller of his destiny, except that he cannot control it because his mind is helpless; so freedom is a “curse,” and man’s fate is fear, trembling, nausea—from which there s “no exit,” since thought is self-deception, system-building is self-deception, a rational ethics is self-deception. All one can do, therefore, is make a blind, activist commitment to some course, or join the Zen Buddhists in merging with a superior dimension, or praise Fidel Castro as the hero o the century, or do something else, anything else, whatever anyone chooses to feel. (This is what Existentialists describe as “individualism.”)


--Leonard Peikoff, The Ominous Parallels, 1982, pp. 134-135

Absurdism in Existentialism is the realization that there is no reason for our existence. We find ourselves here. We didn’t ask to be here. Yes, we are special in that nobody else is exactly like us. We are individuals. However, the world would go on just fine without us. People die every day. We would like to think it matters that we exist, at least to ourselves and some other people, but we must also understand that, in the larger scheme of things, it doesn’t. We are both special and not special. It’s a paradox. It’s a contradiction. It is A is both A and not A, but it is still true.

Passion in Existentialism is what makes us uniquely human, not reason, which a computer program possesses. We feel. We are not simply cold, impersonal robots. It is through our passion that we empathize with others and understand fairness, justice. It is not right to treat people as means to an end. We are each ends in ourselves. And, it is through our passion that we strive to get the most out of life, not just waiting for the rationally safe move. We take risks. We work without a net. We sometimes leap before looking, yet we know we are responsible or what happens to us, not some reality over which we have no control. We are in the moment, making decisions as we go, not following some pre-determined logical path. We are forging our own paths. We don’t subjugate ourselves to God, society, or logic. We are the subjects which make things happen, not the objects which get acted upon.

Knowledge, for the Existentialist, is much like the knowing one’s self about which Plato spoke. Knowledge of the outside world, the in-itself, comes through us, the for-itself. Objects are complete and fixed, yet humans are incomplete, still in a process of becoming, participating in working on our own natures, essences.

What does Sartre mean by “existence before essence? He means that there is not some pre-existing mold into which he was poured or some prior purpose for his being here on earth. Reality is absurd, and we really have no reason for our existence which we can discover. We have to create it. We don't find our purpose, we make it. That's what freedom is. We choose our projects and put meaning into our lives. We have to take responsibility for our essences. We are what we do. What does this mean? It means we aren’t heroes simply because we think we are. If we run away instead of taking a stand, we are what we do.

We are not objects to be shaped and molded by external stimuli over which we have no control. We are not victims of our environment. We are subjects. Our natures are not fixed and completed, as are the natures of the things-in-themselves, the things without freedom. We are incomplete and participate in the creation of our own natures. We are the things-for-themselves, and we are still in a process of becoming. We exist, become aware of our existence, and then work on our essences. Existence prior to essence.

Is freedom a curse? Does it lead to fear and trembling, nausea, and is there no exit? First, if we are subjects, if we participate in creating our own natures, if we are what we do; then we must choose. Not choosing is still a choice. We have no choice but to choose. We are, as Sartre said, “forced into freedom.” Second, yes, this can be scary at first. We find ourselves alone. We have to take responsibility for ourselves. We have no net, no training wheels, no crutches, and no security blankets. We have been kicked out of the nest. Of course we will be anxious for awhile. However, once we live on our own and get used to it, we prefer it to the security of going back to live with our parents, or even with the imaginary parent in the sky. We prefer to be independent.

Is there self-deception? You bet there is. People do deceive themselves that cheating is better than being authentic. They put their blinders on and convince themselves that being drunk all day is better than accomplishing a challenging task which could lead to self-actualization. They allow themselves to be deceived by evangelists who promise them everlasting life. Psychoanalysis works on getting people to talk and realize some suppressed thought which is bothering them. When it comes out, they are free of its influence over them.

Is system-building a self-deception? It could be. Some of these systems are nice to look at, like homes in magazines which show off beautiful homes. However, like some of those homes which are nice to look at but impossible to live in, systems also tend to be impractical. Their foundations crumble when people need them the most. (The Spinoza of Market Street found this out, and so did Rand when she had a crises.)

There is a difference between Existentialism and Zen Buddhism, even if the samsara and the process of becoming aspects of these philosophies are the same. And, yes, Sartre was a leftist activist who supported Castro for awhile and then broke with him when Castro imprisoned a Cuban poet, Heberto Padilla, for “counterrevolutionary attitudes.” Sartre still stood for freedom, as he did when he fought in the French resistance during World War II.

There is a lot more to Existentialism and Jean Paul Sartre than this, and I don’t necessarily agree with everything Sartre said and did. However, my point is that if we read Peikoff and nothing more, we get a very slanted and incomplete picture of Sartre’s philosophy, among the philosophies of several other philosophers. I think respectable philosophers should be a bit more respectful of each other, don’t you? We can present each other’s views in the most persuasive light and then point out the problems if there are any. It’s a bit tacky and ineffective, even counter-effective, to characterize and ridicule someone’s views the way Peikoff presented Sartre.

Bis bald,

Nick


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Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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Nick, have you ever ready the Thomas Covenant series by Stephen R. Donaldson?  The reason I mention it is because it is probably the only fantasy series that has a basis in existentialism as its underlying philosophy.  Whether I agree with it or not, however, the man is an extremely talented writer - well over the standard par these days. 

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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And, yes, Sartre was a leftist activist who supported Castro for awhile and then broke with him when Castro imprisoned a Cuban poet, Heberto Padilla, for “counterrevolutionary attitudes.” Sartre still stood for freedom, as he did when he fought in the French resistance during World War II.

From another thread:
... but Sartre and de Beauvoir were Marxist socialists
Well, if Sartre were such a defender of freedom why didn't he recognize that Marxism restricts freedom by taking away individual choices  and transferring them to the state? That is central to the very idea of Marxism. If you don't have choices you aren't free. Ask Milton and Rose Friedman about that.

Sam


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Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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I think it's fruitless to waste much time responding to Nick's posts. It's obvious to me that he's quite confused about O'ism and needs to read AR's writings more carefully. However, I do want to briefly respond to this notion:

"Passion in Existentialism is what makes us uniquely human, not reason, which a computer program possesses. We feel. We are not simply cold, impersonal robots."

"Passion" doesn't make us uniquely human; other animals experience strong desires and feelings. Nonhuman animals, however, can't project their desires beyond the range of the moment. Why not? Because they don't have a conceptual consciousness (i.e., *the capacity for reason*). And according to AR, a rational person isn't a cold, impersonal robot--that's a classic strawman. A rational person is someone who recognizes that facts are facts, regardless of anyone's wishes, and he must act accordingly if he's to experience self-esteem and have a fulfilling, happy life.

Contrary to your conviction, Nick, Existentialism doesn't advocate "freedom." It advocates slavery to your random whims and arbitrary feelings. And as AR pointed out in her Playboy interview, it's the man who's guided by his impulses, not by his rational judgments, who's the robot.

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 9:38amSanction this postReply
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I will check it out. I have read fiction by Sartre and Camus, not to menton Kaufka.

bis bald,

Nick


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Thursday, July 6, 2006 - 10:53pmSanction this postReply
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Well said, Jon.

Ed

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Friday, July 7, 2006 - 6:00amSanction this postReply
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Jon Wrote:

Why not? Because they don't have a conceptual consciousness (i.e., *the capacity for reason*).
Big assertion - doesn't really hold up to evidence all that well today.

Bob 


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Friday, July 7, 2006 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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It has always surprised me at the number of those who are so eager to rub noses with their dogs - reminds me of the leveling factor as explained by Toohey.

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Friday, July 7, 2006 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
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Ed: Thank you.

Bob: I don't know what you mean when you say that the notion that only humans possess a conceptual consciousness "doesn't really hold up to evidence all that well today." Are you referring to sign language experiments with monkeys, for example? If so, I'd say the evidence I'm aware of that other animals can reason, as opposed to be taught to repeat certain movements, is tenuous at best. When monkeys start making intellectual discoveries and technological advances, I'll change my mind.

Finally, an important point in response to Nick's first post: There's a reason why some people complain that Rand (who helped clarify Peikoff's grasp of other philosophies and helped prepare The Ominous Parallels) gives other thinkers short shrift. It's because AR didn't get lost in the obtuse verbiage of certain philosophers who are widely admired today, but instead grasped the *essence* of what they were saying. She had an incredible ability to bypass the lip service paid to ideas like "freedom" or "justice", to identify exactly what the results of their stated theories would be if actually practiced, and to explain WHY in a way that can be easily understood. Generally, I've found that people who make the above accusation are people who simply take what other thinkers have said at face value, without being able to penetrate beyond the surface.
(Edited by Jon Trager
on 7/07, 1:11pm)


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Friday, July 7, 2006 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Spot on, Jon.

Ed

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Friday, July 7, 2006 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Guys, my point in this thread is that Peikoff presented a biased and inadequate summary of Sartre, whether you agree wth Sartre or not. I am not defending the propostion that everything Sartre said was true, only that it was caricatured by Peikoff. Peikoff is setting up a strawman. Do you see this?

He is also skimming over Zen Buddhism, indicatng that he probably doesn't much about Asian philosophies. 

Feel free to debate with me on these propostions.

bis bald,

Nick


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Friday, July 7, 2006 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Nick,

===================
He [Peikoff] is also skimming over Zen Buddhism, indicat[i]ng that he probably doesn't [know] much about Asian philosophies.
===================

And, upon learning that it preaches any kind of selflessness, he doesn't NEED to know any more about in order to make a judgment (because rational selfishness is a necessary, not a contingent, value). Another way to say this is that rational self-interest is a cardinal value; and ANY system of thought that does disservice to it -- does disservice to mankind.

Ed


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Friday, July 7, 2006 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

What I'm questioning is the notion that human cognition is a difference in kind rather than degree with respect to other animals.  In another thread I was pointed to arguments made by Mortimer J. Adler in support of the difference in kind.

He said

We should be able to determine from the observable behavior of men and other animals whether only men have the power of conceptual thought and the power of free choice, or other animals also have these powers, even though to a somewhat diminished degree. If other animals do possess these powers, even to the slightest degree, then men and other animals differ in degree, not in kind.
 Sounds reasonable.  I looked up some experiments I remembered on this issue and came up with this (among other evidence with chimps).  Chimps show similar conceptual thought.

Pepperberg (1987) has trained a language-trained grey parrot (Alex) to identify the specific difference between objects (matter, shape, or color). Alex learned to properly identify the dimension on which the objects differed at well above chance levels and to generalize this knowledge to novel objects.  The bird's and the nonhuman primate's demonstrated abilities to learn and use an abstract relational concept make one thing clear: nonhuman animals are capable of conceptual feats heretofore thought to be solely within the ken of the human species.
This seems to indicate that animals are capable of at least some level of conceptual thought and thus refutes Adler.

Bob


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Friday, July 7, 2006 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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And, upon learning that it preaches any kind of selflessness, he doesn't NEED to know any more about in order to make a judgment (because rational selfishness is a necessary, not a contingent, value). Another way to say this is that rational self-interest is a cardinal value; and ANY system of thought that does disservice to it -- does disservice to mankind.

Ed

You may be insulted by this, Ed, but I think your response sounds like willfull ignorance, and that can never be in one's rational self-interest.

Nick


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Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 2:07amSanction this postReply
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Nick,

Thanks for the candid reply. You bring up a notion that willful ignorance can't ever be in one's self-interest. Is that notion sound?

What about clearly-evil doctrines, perhaps Marxism (communism) or Nazi-ism (fascism)? Should it be a moral obligation to learn all that one can about all existing doctrines -- even those that betray the nature of man -- because, without total knowledge, one can't judge?

Let's say that you knew that a poison killed 60% of the people who ingested it (but that you didn't know what it did to the other 40%). According to your view, you wouldn't be justified in denouncing the poison -- because you didn't have complete knowledge of what it did to our species.

That is the kind of idiocy that you are defending here.

Ed

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Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 2:50amSanction this postReply
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(Ed)Thanks for the candid reply. You bring up a notion that willful ignorance can't ever be in one's self-interest. Is that notion sound?


(Nick)I think it is. We can’t make ourselves experts on everything. We do have to pick and choose what we are interested in and what we have time to consume. However, if we become convinced of something early in life and then avoid literature or conversation with anybody who questions or challenges that view, regarding them as impious, we are no better than religious fundamentalists who regard all skeptics and anyone who doesn’t agree with them as impious. I think that is a bit anti-educational. It is more like exclusivist faith than reason.

 

I don’t believe in the Bible, but I am a better opponent of it than someone who has never read it.  I can point out the inconsistencies in it and the sexism. I can argue about things with theists quoting scripture and recognizing their references. I have also read Marx and Hitler. These people had power in the world. Perhaps they wouldn’t have had that power if more people would have taken their heads out of the sand and educated themselves, learned how to find fallacies and point them out.

 

I don’t have to have total knowledge before I judge. I can never have total knowledge, but I can be responsible. And, I can keep in mind that I can be wrong about some things. There is some value in Marx, and there are differences among Hindu religions, Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, as well as Islam, Judaism, and the many kinds of Christianity. People who are not isolated and want to be more worldly and aware of what other cultures are concerned with should try to learn a little about other peoples and their views, just as we would like people to learn about our views.

 

Bis bald,

 

Nick

 


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Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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(Nick) There is some value in Marx, and there are differences among Hindu religions, Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, as well as Islam, Judaism, and the many kinds of Christianity.

(Me)
Marxism teaches you don't own what you make or buy.

Hinduism teaches you own the sins of others that died before you.

Buddhism teaches you Nature is an illusion and should be avoided.

Tibetian Buddhism teaches the same as Buddhism but with spirits and voodoo witch doctoring attached.

Taoism teaches no-action is better than action, but never proves it considering it's a metaphysical statement.

Confucianism teaches tradition is better than reason.

Islam teaches you that man is evil and should be chained.

Judaism teaches the same as Islam, but with more Sumerian mythos.

And all kinds of Christianity teach the same as Judaism, but with old school pseudo-Stoic/Hero-Worship gimmicktry.


With all such teachings, no wonder the world is fudged up. Oi!

-- Bridget prefers her evil evil rational/computer(Heideggar dig...) mind to the savagery of religious/mystical quackery...

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Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 11:25amSanction this postReply
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... and Bridgetism teaches you to check your premises and to always keep your eye on an ultimate goal of ethical individualism and the consequent human happiness that it entails.

;-)

Good 'sense of life' reply, Bridget.

Ed

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Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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(Bridget)Marxism teaches you don't own what you make or buy.

 

(Nick)True, but it does have some things to say about alienation, being objectified, that I can relate to, after having worked in factories and industry. And, he said the religion is the opiate of the people. I can see how this is true.

 

Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism talk about being one with everything, not being alienated from nature, rather being part of it. They do away with the dualism of us against the universe. This can be a good thing. And, there are several lessons the martial artist learns about awareness, about bending with the wind, like the grass, to spring back up rather than breaking like the oak that resists. This is the principle behind Judo.

 

Confucius likes tradition because it has a civilizing affect on humans. Conventions, such as a funeral ceremony, help us deal with our feelings of grief. He also liked music and dancing, a way of bringing order from chaos. If we ignore the conventions of other cultures, we tend to have problems. Yes, the Taoists claimed these were artificial constructions, not human and natural, but Confucius didn’t mean them to be that way. Confucius was like the conservatives n the west while the Taoists were like the liberals.

 

There is much with which I disagree in all these orientations, but there is also much with is worthwhile. I don’t condemn all people of one race because a few of them are crooks. That would be bigotry, and it isn’t in our rational self-interest.

 

Bis bald,

 

Nick        


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Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 9:29pmSanction this postReply
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(Nick)Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism talk about being one with everything, not being alienated from nature, rather being part of it.

(Me) I'm not alienated from Nature. I know I am a PART of it rather than apart from it. But I am not ONE with everything, I am metaphysically and epistemologically divergent from other entities, which is great because it means I can assume I am part of a collection of entities and that I can know this from reasoning through my perception of it. Any other formation of what is conflicts with this very basic idea. It often is marked with the belief that the self is an illusion and other such pseudo-intellectual drivel.

(Nick) They do away with the dualism of us against the universe.

(Me) There is no dualism in western thinking outside of Plato. I suggest you read Rand and similar-in-thought individuals instead of ASSuming otherwise...

(Nick) And, there are several lessons the martial artist learns about awareness, about bending with the wind, like the grass, to spring back up rather than breaking like the oak that resists. This is the principle behind Judo.

(Me) The principles behind all major martial arts is their practical application. Karate evolved from Japanese farmers trying to defend themselves from tyrannical samurai and land lords. Kung Fu evolved so the Shaolin monks could live in peace despite having an emperor that wanted them dead. And even several arts in the Phillipines evolved to help kids survive on the rough streets at night. None of them in practice speak jack squat about oneness, but they do speak volumes of how a human can learn to survive when others take away all the formal weapons of war. That one's own body can be the ultimate weapon of all, and in a way it almost vindicates the Aristotlean/Objectivist positions... But none of them have a thing to do with ONENESS and warm fuzzies. Please stop talking like you know them personally, because you don't even know them academically, and that is where I am speaking about them from... :-P

-- Bridget gets really annoyed with fellow bookworms that assume their bookworminess trumps observed fact. :-P~

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