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Friday, July 7, 2006 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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Teacher: According to the Declaration, what two truths are self-evident? 

 

Student: All men are equal, and they all have certain unalienable rights.

 

Teacher: What does self-evident mean?

 

Student: It means that something is obvious. That a person needs no special education to understand it, that even a small child could understand it.

 

Teacher: Is it really self-evident that all men are equal and that they have certain unalienable rights?

 

Student: Well, I'm not sure grossly deformed embryos or people with little chance of surviving long without heroic efforts are the same as normal people. I'm not as sure that criminals who have violated other people's rights have the same rights as innocent people. There is a fuzzy line, but if you ask me if murdering an Australian in Australia is as significant as murdering an American from Kansas . Yes, some things are well on one side or the other of that wide fuzzy line.

 

Teacher: What does it mean that all men are created equal? Does it mean that all men can play basketball as well as Karem Abdul Jabar?

 

Student: No. I think it means people should be treated fairly, that one group should not be discriminated against while another group is given special privileges. For example, if a rich man commits a crime, then he should get the same punishment as a poor man.

 

Teacher: If it is so obvious and self-evident that all men are equal, then why do we have such a complicated court system to find out when people's rights have been violated? Why did we have to fight a war with Great Britain to prove our point? Why am I still arguing with Ed and others on this board about them?

 

Student: I think some things, as I indicated awhile ago, are not self-evident. Some things are controversial and require a great deal of education to unravel. Human beings will never have all the answers, but some things are obvious. Jefferson meant that even a child has some sense of what is right and wrong. The line gets fuzzy, but some things are definitely on one side of the line or the other. The kind of things Great Britain was doing to us were self-evidently unfair. With the Stamp Act, the Quartering Act, the Tea Act, Mercantilism, and a number of things; Great Britain was not treating us equally.

 

Teacher: Now would you like to explain that a little more for the benefit of cynics who think perhaps we are just rationalizing our actions against Great Britain , that perhaps they weren't so bad but we just put our little spin on things?

 

Student: I wouldn't like to have soldiers move into my home and require me to take care of them under the excuse that they are there for my protection? The real reason was that they did not wish to build barracks, and it was also be a good way to watch us, to make sure we say or do nothing which can be critical to the controlling government They confined our movement to this side of the Proclamation Line of 1763, even if we've already staked out land west of it and made friends with the Indians, and they exploited us for the benefit of the mother country by restricting trade through mercantilism. They were paying us for lumber and raw goods but selling it back to us as finished products at a higher price than we paid for it. Since we could not trade with others, we were basically being used as cheap labor and a captive purchasing market. Basically, we were imprisoned, slave labor, and had no freedom of speech to complain about it. Even newspapers had to be censured because they required that government stamp. Of course wealthy, white, male landowners could vote, but those who would most like to make changes were not allowed to vote. That was not a situation where the value of all humans' lives was equally respected.

 

Teacher: Okay, can you tell me what unalienable means?

 

Student: It comes from the word alien, which means strange or foreign or unnatural. If you have an alien object in your milkshake, then you have something that is not naturally there. If you feel alienated, then you feel strange, uncomfortable, or unnatural. Alienable means unnatural. Unalienable means not unnatural.

 

Teacher: Do all people have natural rights, even those people in Russia, El Salvador, Iran, China, Afghanistan, South Africa, and other places?

 

Student: Until I came to this class, I would have said no, that only people in America have natural rights. However, natural rights are human rights, necessary conditions of existence for the proper survival of human beings, and as long as people anywhere are human beings, they have natural rights. It could be that many governments are not protecting natural rights, but that does not mean people do not have these rights. They have them by virtue of being human, not by getting them from governments.

 

Teacher: Okay, we'll talk about the function of governments soon, but can you tell me first what our natural rights are according to the Declaration?

 

Student: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

Teacher: Well, what does that mean? If I have a right to the pursuit of happiness, and it makes me happy to rape my neighbor's wife, then do I have a right to do that?

 

Student: No.

 

Teacher: Why not?

 

Student: Because all men are created equal and all men have equal rights, and you cannot have a right to violate somebody else's right. If we should all have the same rights, then we should have the right to do anything we want as long as we do not step on other people's toes.

 

Teacher: Do you have a natural right to medical care?

 

Student: No. Medical care is the product of somebody else's services. If I have a right to medical care, then I am making a slave out of those who provide that care, depriving someone else of the right to do what he or she wants with his or her services. Medical care is a privilege.

 

Teacher: What is the difference between a right and a privilege?

 

Student: A privilege is something somebody may give me but a right is something I can demand because it is already mine. I have a right to apply for a job, and I have a right to a job if somebody hires me. But, I do not have a right to demand that somebody hire me.

 

Teacher: What is the difference between a natural right and a legal right?

 

Student: Natural rights are, as I explained before, necessary conditions of existence for human survival. Legal rights, like the Miranda rights or the rights under the Bill of Rights, are given to us by governments to protect our natural rights.

 

Teacher: Now, according to the Declaration, what is the function of government? Why are governments formed?

 

Student: To secure or protect the natural rights.

 

Teacher: According to this, do you have a duty to your government, or does your government have a duty to you?

 

Student: I have a right to the pursuit of happiness, and the government has a duty to protect that right. This has to do with the function of the government. It is there to serve the people, not the other way around.

 

Teacher: Then why do we sometimes have things like the draft, which seems to be a violation of individual rights, and why do we pay taxes?

 

Student: It is sometimes necessary to violate some rights to protect other rights. Our government is not yet perfect, but we are aspiring to the ideals stated in the Declaration. The Declaration contains general principles, but reality is often complicated. Nevertheless, these principles give us a good idea of what to strive for.

 

Teacher: Perhaps some of the complications come from a lack of understanding by many people who are responsible for the proper functioning of our government of the principles you just explained.

 

From about 1781 to 1789, the newly independent Americans struggled under a weak central government called the Articles of Confederation. It was understandable that they should want a loose confederation instead of a strong central government like the one they fought, but this near anarchy also had its problems, much to the satisfaction of Great Britain . The colonists finally, by 1789, ratified the Constitution, which has been a fairly effective instrument, with safegaurds and checks and balances, for implementing the principles contained in the Declaration.

 
Still, the rights of black people, Indians, women, and other minorities were constantly violated. Problems did not go away. As inventions were made and industrialization got under way, civilization became ever more complex and sophisticated. The Constitution has been fairly effective at protecting individual rights but certainly not one hundred percent effective.
 
The model of laissez-faire capitalism seems the perfect economic system for an egoist. It is based on self-interest, the profit motive, which is suppose to make it work. The producer/industrialist/employer must appeal to the self-interest of his employees so they will continue to appeal effectively with the self-interest of consumers, and value is voluntarily exchanged for value. Theoretically, everyone is happy. If an employer does not appeal to the self-interest of employees or customers, then he or she leaves himself or herself open to competition from someone who does. Theoretically, the invisible hand of economic law regulates everything justly.
 
One problem with this is that too many businessmen fooled the public long enough to no longer need be concerned about appealing to the public's self-interest. They could afford to corner a market and set wages and prices anywhere they wanted, with no concern for economic law.
 
America's industrial history is filled with forced child labor, low wages, sweat shops, unsafe conditions, blacklisting and monopolies. Before government intervention, people were getting lung disease, blown-up, and caved-in on in the mines. In foundaries and factories, people were falling into vats of molten steel or getting their arms chopped off and ground into meat which was then sold to the public. Women were making dresses for twentyfive cents that were sold for hundreds of dollars, and then many of these women burned in the famous Triangle Factory fire.
 
There weren't as many employers as there were employees. It was easier for employees to get together at their cocktail lounges and organize. To protect themselves and perpetuate the class system, they formed blacklists and agreed that if one employer fired an employee, then other employers would not hire him either. They could enforce their arrangements by threatening to go to other employers to put pressure on the employer who didn't agree.
 
Early unions had a difficult time. There were strikes and riots and head bashings. Union leaders were called communists and thrown in jail.
Eventually, the government intervened. Early examples of government regulations were child labor laws, the Pure Food and Drug Act, the minimum wage, the anti-trust laws, and the Interstate Commerce Act. Later, when the United States was into the Great Depression, Franklin D. Roosevelt started government programs almost changing the primary function ot the government from protecting individual rights to redistributing the wealth. However, it seems that something had to be done, and it also seems some of Roosevelt 's actions worked.
 
Karl Marx saw all of the problems with capitalism in Europe . He accurately described how factory work alienates people and how capitalists become slaves to this non-human thing called capital. When I am involved in a transaction, when I wish to purchase a new car, then I am not interested in the person who sells me the car, and he or she is not interested in me. We each care only for material things, the non-human things.
 
Marx felt his philosophy was more liberating and humanistic than capitalism. It was his goal that through socialism people would learn how to live with other people in harmony, and we would, eventually, not need the government force which often disrupts more than it controls.
 
Marxism leaves out the profit motive which promotes productive competition, from the capitalist's point of view, and he subjugates the individual to the group. There have been problems with the application of Marxism, and there are variations of the theory of which Karl Marx would probably disapprove. However, to be honest, there are also problems with capitalism. It's not right that all people should be kept at a median level, sharing their rewards with both deserving and undeserving, but it's also not right that there are a few rich industrialists while everyone else lives in poverty.
 
I choose to work for capitalism, but I must be careful. When I tell the government to back off, I don't want unscrupulous employers to victimise me. I don't want thousands of people who have come to depend on government programs to be cut off. On the other hand, eventually I want to be an individual who shares his rewards with only those he chooses and is a burden to no one.

 bis bald,

 

Nick



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Post 1

Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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This thread doesn't deliver...

-- Bridget

Post 2

Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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And 'self-evident' isn't 'self-obvious' ...

==================
... some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of the propositions.
==================
--Aquinas, Summa Theologiae Question 94, Article 2

Ed

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Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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Basically, that which is self-evident means it's a logical corollary?

-- Bridget

Post 4

Saturday, July 8, 2006 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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Bridget, no, you'd have to add experience (perceptual awareness) to reasoning -- to account for self-evident perceptions that didn't include any reasoning, because it happened too fast, for instance (such as stepping on broken glass with bare feet!).

According to Audi (in Epistemology, 2nd Ed, p 94), there are 2 ingredients to self-evident truths (caps for italics)...

==============
(1) if one (adequately) understands them, then by virtue of that understanding one is justified IN believing them, and
(2) if one believes them on the basis of (adequately) understanding them, then one thereby knows them.
==============

He goes on to say (p 95) that ...

==============
... it is commonly thought that all self-evident truths are ALSO obvious. But not all of them are -- at least to finite minds. ... it may not be obvious to most of us, on first considering it, that first cousins have a pair of grandparents in common. But this satisfies both (1) and (2) and is self-evident.
==============

(p 99)

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... the proposition that nothing is red and green all over at once is self-evident and necessary ...
==============

(p 101)

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... a priori propositions are characterized in terms of HOW THEY ARE known, or can be known: through the operation of reason. (This allows that they can ALSO be known through experience ...
==============

(p 117)

==============
... water is H2O ... some necessary truths are empirical. ... an empirical proposition (that I am the son of R and E) which is apparently necessary. ... the proposition that I have the parents I do is an ESSENTIAL TRUTH ...
==============

(p 119)

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Reason yields no knowledge ... until experience, whether perceptual, reflective, or introspective, acquaints us with (or develops in us) concepts sufficient for grasping a priori propositions.
==============

Recap:
Perception is the road, and reason is the rubber. It is only when the rubber hits the road -- that you get any traction.

;-)

Ed


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Sunday, July 9, 2006 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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If you want to talk about perception, logic, and language; I have a thread for that. Do you have anythng here to say about my theory of natural rights?

bis bald,

Nick


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Sunday, July 9, 2006 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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Nick,

==================
If you want to talk about perception, logic, and language; I have a thread for that.
==================

That's just it -- you have a thread for everything.

My only comment on this thread is that I think you incompletely understand the inevitable consequences of a totally-free market.

Ed

Post 7

Sunday, July 9, 2006 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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(Ed)My only comment on this thread is that I think you incompletely understand the inevitable consequences of a totally-free market.

(Nick)Please explain. Are you an orthodox Objectivist on this, or do you think pure capitalism may have some problems.

bis bald,

Nick 

(Edited by Mr. Nicholas Neal Otani on 7/09, 6:04pm)


Post 8

Sunday, July 9, 2006 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
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Nick, I'm Ortho. While problems can arise under pure Capitalism -- they cannot remain influential (this is because the market "teaches" consumers how to budget, and how to 'vote' with their dollars).

Ed

Post 9

Sunday, July 9, 2006 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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(Ed)Nick, I'm Ortho. While problems can arise under pure Capitalism -- they cannot remain influential (this is because the market "teaches" consumers how to budget, and how to 'vote' with their dollars).

(Nick)Good. I asked a few questions in my thread on Hedonism, Utilitarianism, and Rational Egoism that nobody has responded to yet. They might also apply here. One is the prisoner's dilemma, which can also apply in a market situation. If there is private fire insurance but you live close enough to neighbors that the fire department will have to put out a fire in your house so that it won't threaten your neighbor's house, woud the rational egoist pay for the insurance if the neighbor has paid for it? Also, how would you set up a capitalstic system from scratch, as when you are in an airplane that crashes on an island and everyone is on his or her own. There is no law. Would you claim the fresh water source for yourself and sell it to others? What if someone else claims it first and doesn't want to sell to you. What determines, without the initiation of physical force, who owns what property?

bis bald,

Nick

 


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Monday, July 10, 2006 - 6:11amSanction this postReply
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Nick,

===================
If there is private fire insurance but you live close enough to neighbors that the fire department will have to put out a fire in your house so that it won't threaten your neighbor's house, woud the rational egoist pay for the insurance if the neighbor has paid for it?
===================

Rational folks don't take the unearned (because there isn't genuine value in that). If you work hard (even risk your life) to save the home and personal possessions of a rational man, expect to be paid for your efforts. That said, the neighbors carrying the insurance could also ...

-move farther away from folks

-talk their neighbors into getting this same insurance

-talk their insurance company into have a policy for fires starting in THEIR home, and a supplementary policy for fires starting in surrounding homes -- and talk their neighbors into pitching-in on that supplementary policy (because it, in effect, is protecting their homes)



===================
Would you claim the fresh water source for yourself and sell it to others? What if someone else claims it first and doesn't want to sell to you. What determines, without the initiation of physical force, who owns what property?
===================

First of all, the example is a little extreme -- in a Gilligan's Island sort of way. Is there only ONE fresh water source? And, regarding law, rational folks would immediately instigate and utilize a natural law.

Anyway, in general, the necessary ingredient for property owning is to mix labor with the land IN ORDER TO produce value. You can't just sweep your arm around and say: "This is mine."

In the case of fresh water, someone would have to set up a water filtration/purification/extraction system (even if crude), in order to stake claim to owning part of the pond.

A dilemma occurs when Primitive Pete gets there first, fences off the pond, and uses a teaspoon with which to fill coconut shells (instead of dipping the coconut shells), and says that he owns the whole pond -- even though his labor is not producing the kind of value that the labor of others would have.

There is always someone who can use your land better than you can.

Ed


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Monday, July 10, 2006 - 6:25amSanction this postReply
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There is always someone who can use your land better than you can.

 

As in Kelo?


Post 12

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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Rev'

Yeah, Kelo (as well as arguments by Ronald Coase) was on my mind at the time.

Of course, my dilemma is a little extreme -- as it involves a man who's too primitive to learn to do things better -- and he's staked claim to more land than he is capable of producing value from (though HE'S thinking he hasn't).

Ed

Post 13

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 6:44amSanction this postReply
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Yes - the typical Balboa....

Post 14

Monday, July 10, 2006 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
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Ed Wrote:

that first cousins have a pair of grandparents in common. But this satisfies both (1) and (2) and is self-evident.
But this is a useless statement when the concept of "first cousins" is defined as sharing a common pair of grandparents.  A "truth" carries no logical weight at all when the only thing supporting the concept is its definition.  Or put another way, there is neither perception nor reason involved anymore.

Where have I seen this before???

Bob

(Edited by Mr Bob Mac on 7/10, 8:45am)


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Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 10:59pmSanction this postReply
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Bob,

To be clear, it was R. Audi who wrote that (I merely quoted him). The underlying issue is, contrary to your arguably-feeble confabulations, whether the fact of the shared grandparents is obvious to casual observers.

What's most obvious to observers, is that the cousins' parents are siblings. Only upon reflection, does it become obvious that a shared set of grandparents underlies "cousin-ism."

There is the self-evident, and the self-obvious -- and ne'er the twain shall meet (except upon exceptionally astute observers).

Ed

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Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:01pmSanction this postReply
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(Ed)A dilemma occurs when Primitive Pete gets there first, fences off the pond, and uses a teaspoon with which to fill coconut shells (instead of dipping the coconut shells), and says that he owns the whole pond -- even though his labor is not producing the kind of value that the labor of others would have.

(Nick)What should we do n that case, Ed?

bis bald,

Nick


Post 17

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:33pmSanction this postReply
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Nick,

You still haven't answered my question: Is this the only drinkable water, or not?

If it were the only drinkable water -- and Primitive Pete couldn't meet the physiologic demand for hydration (because of persistent ignorance on how to extract water efficiently), then it becomes moral to take his land from him -- in order to survive.

But this is not ever the case in advanced society (ie. it has little to no generalizability), where folks aren't ever tied to a single source of sustenance. There is no 'replacement' for water -- it is essential to life. When it's life or death, then anything goes -- but it is rarely, if ever, life or death; in an advanced society.

Ed

Post 18

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:22pmSanction this postReply
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(Ed)But this is not ever the case in advanced society (ie. it has little to no generalizability), where folks aren't ever tied to a single source of sustenance. There is no 'replacement' for water -- it is essential to life. When it's life or death, then anything goes -- but it is rarely, if ever, life or death; in an advanced society.

(Nick)Ths is pretty weak, Ed. Natural resourses are not always abundant in all environments. And, someone who owns property has a right to decide how it should be dispensed. He has no oblgation to provide for your needs, according to Objectivism. And, you have no rght to ntiate physcal force against him. Shame on you!

bis bald,

Nick


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Post 19

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
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Nick, I've been watching you bounce back and forth with Ed for a while.  Ed has shown superhuman patience thus far.  Unfortunately, I'm not that patient.

(Nick)Ths is pretty weak, Ed. Natural resourses are not always abundant in all environments. And, someone who owns property has a right to decide how it should be dispensed. He has no oblgation to provide for your needs, according to Objectivism. And, you have no rght to ntiate physcal force against him. Shame on you!
Ed's answer was forced because you refused to answer his question: "is this the only available drinkable water?"

When natural resources aren't abundant in an environment, even insects won't live there. But you seem to assume that humans would be more then eager to live in a barren environment, with a single water source, privately owned by a tyrant.  Why is that? 

Like Ed said, there is no substitute for water. It is survival.

If a single tyrant owned all of the potable water on the face of the Earth, wouldn't the rest of the human population be within their rights to claim their own survival, at any cost?  One tyrant laying claim to the survival of everyone else is slavery, and slaves have the right to revolt.  



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